The instance seems to be mostly right wing trolls. I know defederating is unpopular but I don’t think much is to be lost in this case and it can save the mods some headaches.
Edit: the response on exploding-heads.com to my reporting of transphobia. Courtesy of the “second in command”
Nazi instances will proliferate and it benefits nobody else to stay in federation with them. It makes the whole fediverse less usable and more dangerous. And whether you like it or not it sends a message to people who are targeted by them that they are not truly welcome here, regardless of whatever moderation rules are espoused.
And in North America, as in many places, these people are acting as a propaganda arm for a literal violent terror movement. Sometimes under a fig leaf of ”irony” but it makes no material difference whether they’re chuckling when they spew shit to me
Thank you for the voice of reason. I have seen so many “but I don’t want an echo chamber” and “just block them bro”. Like thats not the point of this. It’s to deplatform them.
You keep on trying to deplatform Christian soccer moms and everyone is gonna go back to reddit.
Moderates: [email protected]
best sub
How many Christian Soccer Moms do you think used reddit in the first place? How many do you think are on Lemmy?
millions. Prove me wrong.
That’s impossible, because all Soccer Moms on reddit are vampires, and vampires can’t be Christian by definition.
Prove my logic wrong.
Please post sources and no racism is allowed here. I’m friends with your mom.
I’m also shagging this guys mom
I’m new to the fediverse and im kinda happy that its so easy to defederate from the more over the top instances. I’m in favor of closing the door on those psychos too.
They are just saying whatever to get a rise out of people like 4chan. The goal is chaos they want everyone to react and ban instances.
They don’t magically go away when they are defederated. They will sign up to other open instances and plan their raids from the defederated one which we will have no visibility of. Then they can go from instance to instance causing chaos and breaking up the network as each one defederates.
Then you are back at square one where it is a user problem.
I’m not supporting this particular instance but its a problem that needs to be considered and defederation is a short term fix but will result it bigger problems down the line.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam dumb shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam down shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
I think the responsibility lies on the owners of each instance to manage trolls on their instance. If they moderate responsibly and shut down the Nazis and trolls, nobody will defederate them. If they don’t moderate effectively and their instance turns into a cesspool, they’ll get defederated by everybody except other trolls.
That’s the whole point of the fediverse. You run your instance, and based on what users on your instance do, other instances decide whether or not to federate with it. And if that results in multiple federated networks that don’t federate with one another, that’s fine too. You can’t keep fascists or tankies from downloading server software and setting up an online forum. But you can keep them out of yours.
Not a lot of folks are that vindictive and dedicated to the cause, to make that an issue, I don’t think.
Evidence?
I mean trolls in general, I’m not calling for defederation. I’m trying to point out it won’t solve their problem. I’m playing devils advocate and saying they’re will always be something someone finds offensive and to block problematic individuals not the whole instance.
I want names and links
I didn’t visit the site, i said I’m speaking in a general sense about trolls.
deleted by creator
Then sh.itjust.works should probably remove their instance-wide rules.
It’s always funny as, non American, to read about this naive anti- censorship slogans. Hateful political groups never stay in their places and play nice everywhere else. They brigade and harass every fucking time. There’s a reason why every place without moderation turns into a absolute toxic cesspit.
If you all think blocking a fascist server is going “too far” and you want to keep federating, then congratulations on becoming The Nazi Bar.
The “paradox” of tolerance is not some contradictory slippery slope. It is a fact of communities and must always be upheld. I hope our admin makes the correct choice.
Tolerance is a peace treaty, not a moral precept.
Defederating is a proportional response to a server with a top-level community dedicated to trans hate.
I think people need to remember that nobody owes one’s instance federation
I’d recommend defederating from beehaw if your litmus is “views that end up harmful to trans people are promoted by the instance” as they have a lot of communities like that on there.
of course, people disagree as to what “harm to X” actually means hence the problem.
I’m curious if you have examples given that seems pretty against what I’ve seen of Beehaw so far.
Not saying you’re wrong, it’s just not something I’ve seen yet.
Take a look at this thread. I commented trying to encourage a healthy direction, but giving this guy proper actual scientific/medical info that would help him live a healthy life would almost certainly get you removed/banned from beehaw, and the rest of the comments are encouraging something that will harm this person long term.
This happens a lot in more “progressive” lgbtqia-style spaces, because a lot of their ideology is fundamentally something that can, will, and does harm a lot of people. Look up “detransitioners” as a good example of things going wrong.
To me, and other people who are not aligned with their worldview, it’s obvious that there is harm in the ideology being pushed, and by censoring those who have a difference of view, or who try to stick to proper medical science, you end up funnelling people into paths that end up harming them.
Of course, others will disagree and think there’s no harm in this (that’s why they’re commenting as they do). But I’m someone who’s seen it first hand many times and so I simply can’t get on board with that way of doing things.
It’s not overtly “hateful”, rather the opposite: toxic positivity. But still harmful. But my point here isn’t “you should actually defederate from beehaw”. My point is that what people think is “harmful” differs depending on your views and beliefs.
If I tell this guy, hey you have a medical condition called transvestism, have gyneandromorphophilia, and are at risk of further developing dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder, is that “hateful”? Beehaw probably thinks it is. But IMO that is simply helping and informing.
I was very interested to see examples, as I do not like to judge without knowledge, and I am a very firm believer that toxic positivity is harmful.
That being said, I saw no toxic positivity in that thread or harmfully “positive” comments. Instead, what I saw were many people encouraging OP to explore the ideas thoughtfully while keeping in mind that no one can tell them if they are trans except themselves. I saw encouragement to seek out therapy instead of doing this alone, encouragement to consider the ideas of doing mundane things as a woman (such as doing taxes, grocery shopping, commuting, etc) and see if it still felt right (instead of just the attraction or sexual aspects), reminders that the whole concept is a spectrum and not to get hung up on labels and instead focus on actions that feel right.
I fail to see how any of that is toxic positivity.
The only worrying comment I saw was yours, and even moreso because you indicated that you were biting your tongue because of the community’s rules. You used negative slang terminology to indicate this person merely has a fetish and that this big bad world is too confusing so OP should look to the past when these things were handled more simply “scientifically”, and insinuated they were only going to blindly follow the answer given to them about whether or not they are trans instead of explore their identity given the info from the thread.
It’s the equivalent of encouraging someone with anorexia that they should lose weight and eat less.
Anorexia is actively harming the individual, exploring gender identity and expression is not. Additionally, the commenters (multiple!) told OP that they should seek out therapy in order to actively explore these ideas.
I think I have a bead on what you’re saying now.
I can’t really say I agree that gently supporting someone to explore a side of themselves they are coming to grips with is the same as advocating for the eradication of trans people…
I see it like this: the more these far right types are isolated in echochambers, the more extreme they will get, and long term that is harmful. if, instead, we foster polite and civil discussions, we can come to a mutual understanding, change minds, change hearts, and actually do something that benefits all, and help everyone get closer to the actual truth of the matter.
The mod in the post clearly was speaking against overt hate (slurs and the like). And I think that’s the sort of thing that should be stamped out and discouraged. But a disagreement of views? If you don’t wanna see someone’s differing opinion, why should that mean you’re gonna prevent everyone else from talking to them? Just block yeah?
The example that beehaw defederated over makes sense. There were people posting nsfw content in sfw communities, off topic, that was clearly meant to shock, harm, etc. it makes sense.
But have these exploding-head guys posted off topic? did they spam? did they shout slurs everywhere? or did they simply disagree with you? If it’s a matter of disagreement, I don’t see why the strong action of defederation is needed. Surely we can talk things out?
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The existence of people who detransition is often brought up in anti-trans circles as a criticism of gender-affirming care. However, the actual number of trans people who even just regret getting medical treatments is like 0.5%. Versus something like 14% for medical surgeries in general. And this is including trans people who regret it for social or economic reasons.
I could say some things about why some people here don’t seem to think that people outright saying full-on alt-right shit is bad enough that we should defederate, but I don’t think they’d actually understand or want to
fuck it; those people are so lucky that they’ve never had to think about the danger of alt-right shit as anything other than a thought experiment, the type that hasn’t ever had to deal with people who fundamentally want them to stop existing
like guys, that’s not “alt-right people are crazy weirdos but ultimately harmless”, that’s “I’m lucky because I just happen to not be a primary target for them, if a target at all, and I have mistaken this for the alt-right being of low influence”
honestly peak “I don’t have to think much about politics, and haven’t realized that this is an incredible privilege to have” behavior
To put another spin on it, lemmygrad and exploding heads have an old beef with each other that predates the reddit migration. Far-left vs far-right, it’s not rocket science. As an example try typing in lemmygrad.com and see which instance it takes you to.
Now ask yourself what it tells people when sh.itjust.works has lemmygrad defederated but not EH. It’s an endorsement, no?
Exploding Heads has never defederated lemmygrad. We invite diverse opinions, discussion, and debate.
People rarely know what the paradox of tolerance really is and just use it as a cudgel to shut down any argument they disagree with.
The creator of the idea himself said
"I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.
But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument"
I was banned from r/GamingCircleJerk for ‘transphobia’ because I said they were wrong for harassing streamers for playing Hogwarts Legacy and that the over the top attacks on a video game were causing harm to trans causes.
We run into that problem a lot. People get high on righteousness and any attempt at moderation is seen as being from ‘the enemy’.
I think the opinions expressed by the person in the OP’s screenshot are heinous and people who share their opinions cause real harm in society. However, there is a major difference between having bad opinions and posting an address of a Jewish Synagogue with instructions on how to make firebombs. De-Federation should be used to cut ties with instances who promote calling for violence, sharing abusive content (like CSAM) and spreading hatred.
I’m of the opinion that people who have wrong opinions can be reached and that we have a responsibility to have a dialog with people with whom we strongly disagree. That responsibility ends when the person or group descends into actual violent acts. That’s the line for de-federation, in my opinon.
I definitely agree.
That’s the thing though, most (all?) alt-right arguments aren’t based on facts and opening the door for them to even try and defend their point of view also opens the door to the radicalisation of people who are potentially swayed by non-rational arguments.
Give them as little visibility as possible so people who might be convinced by them get as little exposition as possible and society will just be better for it.
Most arguments are based on belief rather than facts. We rarely do the research and testing ourselves and instead just trust whomever we already agree with and is considered an expert.
Problem is that’s on all sides of the political spectrum. Everyone thinks their experts are right and everyone else is crazy or deluded.
The way to resolve this and find out what’s actually true isn’t by shutting down what one disagrees with, but by engaging in debates and discussion with each other, and pointing out the holes in each other’s reasoning and tests.
Not that I don’t believe you, but got a source for that quote? would love to read more
Sure, np.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Page 280 if the link breaks: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.59272/page/n279/mode/1up
Well put.
I think your standards for what you call fascism is dangerously misguided, I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t recognise a totalitarian society if it snuck up on you.
No, in fact I have studied it well. It is within the established parameters, if you care to look them up. I am indeed acutely aware of the totalitarianism that is creeping further and further each day in my country.
Fascism must be ruthlessly stomped out and nipped in the bud before it can spread. It is too late in the outside world, but not here, in these small online communities.
Here, we still have a choice.
Edit: lol I just noticed you’re from that instance. You’re just a concern troll/crypto fascist so nvm. But I’ll leave this comment up for others to read.
it’s not necessarily too late in the outside world either, tbh; it’s just harder
If you’d care to check my comment history, maybe you can see your own prejudice for yourself.
I checked it. All I see is a person with an account on an instance that allows hateful posts to go on unmoderated. Now, I could surmise that you are a regular Joe that made his account on a bad server on accident. But no. You seem to have no problem sitting at the table with those biggots. Beyond that, you are dead set on defending that horrid instance at every corner. So it’s kinda hard to take what you say in good faith.
The irony of being against fascism and then getting upset when one of these supposed fascists is willing to engage with you – But you’re not willing to engage with them.
Because fascists lie? They don’t engage in good faith, it’s a very long established precedent.
Edit: Holy shit it’s you again, you are a good example actually.
Correct, they do lie, which is why engaging with them is easy. you can point out their lie and mock them, which convinces anyone who is unaware of the lies.
Also really now? you think I’m a fascist?
I got no idea of you’re fash or not, but you are clearly acting in bad faith. Trying to apply the paradox of tolerance to someone using the paradox of tolerance? Not denying the place your defending is awful, but instead trying to say quarantining it is bad for reasons? Trying to suggest that viewpoints completely divorced from reality are completely valid?
Mocking shitheels is a great passtime, but engaging with someone who lies about the basic facts of reality is nearly impossible. A COVID denier, just to bring it all back around in a single comment, will just deny evidence has any merit. Look at the latest trans freak outs, again to keep it to a single reply, it’s ‘people’ objectively lying and claiming kids get surgery when that doesn’t happen.
No. I’m clearly not a fascist. I’m quite the opposite, in fact, I’m staunchly democratic.
I’m acting in bad faith? No, I’m not. I’m actively engaging with you, I’m not shutting you down or refusing your points or values.
So many misuse what the Paradox is, I blame American politics. The paradox of intolerance clearly states;
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies ; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force ; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument ; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law
My entire point is that if users come here from outside their safe-spaces, we are free to engage and challenge their bigoted views. Will it change their opinion? Perhaps, Daryl Davis believes so and from experience, so do I. Regardless, at least it will show to others how outdated and stupid these views are. Do you agree with me on that?
When their claim is easy to disprove, then disprove it. If they say that it’s fake-news, then it only makes them look like an idiot.
That would be the case if they showed some good faith and had their opinion swayed by rational arguments. It’s not the case, so might as well just not let them take part in the debate until they actually understand what a debate is.
If they don’t know what they’re doing, it should be easy to prove them wrong and make them look silly. You can also try to argue via emotions.
There’s no irony in that at all lol
For some people, they are already living in it.
I envy some people living in developed countries; they can take what they like and ignore what they dislike.
There was a guy calling Ernest (kbin dev) a fascist earlier because his avatar is a screenshot of monty python with a guy holding a gun.
for the downvoters
nazi accusationWhile I don’t dispute your broader point that people can have some rather broadly-ranging views on what constitutes fascism, I do wonder if that specific user might be trolling.
to some people, everyone but those they agree with are a fascist. to others, seemingly no one is a fascist. It’s rare to see people actually use the word properly, as it’s kinda just become an insult. The right call the left fascists and the left call the right fascists. Meanwhile actual fascists openly acknowledge such lol.
I hope you know that the intolerance paradox also applies to you.
There’s no way I’m going to read all of that but I scanned it and caught a “I have many gay friends” and said ayup, there it is.
They are also using a hermaphrodite cousin as a token trans friend.
Yeah I must confess I recently went over there and agitated them a bit. I just wanted to see what their deal was because I saw a few of them over here.
TLDR they are basically like r/thedonald, libertarian types. Use slurs as a badge of honor. Angry, sad people. Fully in favor of defederation. But I get that it’s early days, and defederation is a sensitive topic. I just don’t see any path to that server becoming something of value that I’d want to interact with.
Defederation should be the LAST and FINAL option. From what I understand, this is a small instance that isn’t causing much trouble outside of their instance. Block them on your own! I’m on lemmy.world, but personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post. I don’t think we should start goimg around defederating communities that we disagree with, even though their opinions are shit, vile, offensive, and disgusting. Leave it up and block them on your own.
100%
I don’t like how r/conservative handles their moderation but I don’t think their subreddit should be nuked.
But things like Men Going Their Own Way, and The Donald or any other subreddits promoting violence and direct hate deserve removal (or de-federation). De-federation should be used as a tool of last resort. For places who are turning to actual violence or outright hatred.
I cannot stress how strongly I disagree with exploding-head’s stance on Trans rights and racism but if someone has an odious opinion on gender affirming care or trans athletes then they should be met by people who counter their ideas. Simply cutting them off into isolation provides zero chance of changing their minds.
I understand that some people have no interest in debating people who disagree with them, and that is entirely ok. Block any community or poster that you find offensive but defederation is not something that should be used regularly.
Yes exactly. Just like there are idiots in real life, we ignore them and move on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if we disagree with it. Sure people can spout some nonsense devoid of facts we can down vote if thats the case .
You might disagree with someone on politics but like the same sports team for example. There are humans on either side so like in real life we can get along and don’t need to agree on everything.
If something is illegal or its hate speech or something like that then report and block the user and the content.
If you don’t like a community you can block it but if we shut off instances all of the time I can guarantee you the fediverse will just turn into isolated echo chambers and we’ll all be forced back to corporate walled gardens.
If we can coexist in real life we can coexist here.
We need our views challenged to grow. Being corrected is a good thing thats how we learn. Life is short at the end of the day let’s not try to take it too serious.
❤️
holy shit, how do I even begin to explain that you can’t just “ignore” Nazis and racists and transphobes and letting them keep their platform
you do understand that they hurt real fucking people, right???
I don’t see why we need to coexist with people who are against coexistence with certain groups of people.
Sounds like you are against coexisting with conservatives
Lol touch grass
eat ass
Okay, I’ve finished eating ass.
Have you gone outside yet?
Yes
Sounds like you would like lemmygrad.
Anarchist, but hey you tried…
Then you should feel at home with a anarcho capitalist instance like exploding-heads
Let me ask you this … Anarchist. Do you think what Xi Jing Ping is doing to the Muslims in China is bad or are you a Holocaust denying Wumao?
I think given their hateful content it is irresponsible to essentially platform their content by remaining federated. Do you really feel the need to stay up to date on the latest transphobic meme and covid conspiracy theories?
I don’t feel a need to stay up to date, no. But reading about what those idiots think doesn’t hurt my ego or ruin my day. I just like to have an idea of what the “enemy” is thinking. I don’t want to live in an echo chamber. The sub isn’t even THAT bad compared to what I was expecting. They’ve got some gross posts, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not NEARLY bad enough to warrant defederating. Most of the posted content is moderate-right. Defederating is silly in this case.
Removing those that wish people were dead for existing doesn’t create an echo chamber.
If they have users calling for violence and those users are not being banned that is one thing. If they have odious opinions on trans healthcare that’s completely different.
De-federation should be used for instances that promote literal violence. Blocking should be used on communities and posters who have opinions that you can’t stand.
We get it, you’re straight.
Is it not a much more powerful message if the fediverse as a whole down votes the stuff into oblivion. If they are isolated it becomes an us vs them game with them playing the victim.
When they see that by and large they are ignored and downvoted they might grow up and realize they are acting like dicks.
It’s not a matter of the opinions being unpopular and thus toothless. By federating with them we are giving them a larger platform to get their message out to those who will believe it.
You don’t see their communities unless you subscribe. If their users are posting in our communities and breaking the rules of the communities then their posts will be deleted and the users banned.
There are moderation options other than de-federation. De-federation is an option of last resort to protect the greater community from violence, abuse and crime. De-federation is not a tool for sending a political message.
You can personally block that entire server and you will never see anything from them.
You see their shit if you sort by new. Are you like a kbin user? Maybe shit works differently for you.
My username shows @Difficult_Bit_1339 to you, so we’re on the same instance. If it had @lemmy.world then I would be a user on the lemmy.world instance.
If you choose ‘All’ instead of ‘Local’ or ‘Subscribed’ then you see everything that exists, yes. I wouldn’t recommend that since it is an incredibly spammy experience. That being said, you can block any community like so:
They know they’re acting like dicks, they’re openly proud and revel in it and it’s a core, fundamental part of who they are. Hateful bigots such as them don’t have any interest in changing who they are or improving their behaviour, they will just shift the goalposts and double down every time they are challenged. It’s been proven time and time again that they are not looking to be reasonable.
Tbh that sounds like how people are pushed into extremism. When an open dialog is kept, there is at least a chance a thought provoking discussion would change a mind, even if it’s just one mind. I don’t really know, I don’t mind defederating in this instance ftmp, nothing of value for me there so whatever.
I guess these ppl are already extremists, so 🤷
I agree with this. Isolating communities that have odious beliefs only lead to those beliefs being echoed and intensified in their small spaces, and hence become more extreme over time. It’s not “nipping the issue in the bud” like many people seem to think it is, it’s the complete opposite. Past a certain line we definitely should cut ties, but I guess it’s debatable where that line should be drawn.
I think that, in these instances, there is a sort of nuance and humanness that is kinda glossed over.
Its not really that hard to imagine ending up like that. Im not apologizing for them, I’m just saying that we are in a constant fight with our own biology and alot of stuff depends on circumstance.
What these people, apparently, need is some lsd or smth cause they are all stuck in their heads. They hate themselves. It’s all projection and protection of something they don’t even understand.
Should we just let them wallow in their own shit? What is our duty to them, if any? I’m not really sure tbh. But I know pretending that it’s not real ain’t gonna fix shit.
“personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post”
The shit they post is the gateway to worse things for some. You’re still free to go check what’s going on over there, it doesn’t mean they should have access to our space.
gateway to worse things for some
so you’re basically saying “there’s nothing wrong with this, but let’s ban it anyway because it may be a little wrong in the future”?
Where did I say there’s nothing wrong with what they say?
In the OP you’ve got the perfect example: “I’m not racist but I can point to BLM and criticize it…” that’s exactly how you plant the seed that leads some people to racism, with that “but”.
I’ll share it again and again: https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Communities keep deciding not to react to alt-right users until it’s too late to get rid of them.
… are you saying you can’t criticize BLM?
also that yt link lol
i probably already watched it but will again cuz i remember liking it.
upon rewatching a few minutes of it, i can see there’s a few fallacies here and there but doens’t mean it’s wrong.
final edit: wow does he make a shitfuckton of assumptions to just say “if we allow jordan peterson to have a youtube channel we’re killing poor black people”
No, I’m saying that it’s exactly the way the alt-right opens doors to more extreme opinions. “I don’t think X but…”. They keep moving the window of what is and isn’t acceptable this way.
Let them participate here and that’s exactly what they’ll keep doing until the problem is too major to control because they’ve taken over (see /r/Canada even before /r/metacanada was banned) or a mod puts their big pants on and say enough is enough and bans their instance, but then you’re still stuck with all the users that got converted.
I see. Maybe I’m biased because the very few times I’ve seen them posting here I found them to be pretty funny and liked their presence. Their tactless way of having fun is somewhat endearing in a sense. I’m their polar opposite in terms of political ideology and completely disagree with all of their political points but that doesn’t make it not fun to see them hopping around being little nodes of angst.
It’s already started:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/287275
Extremists are very good at “just making jokes” and “just asking questions” and maybe to you that’s what they’re doing, but doing the joke opens the door to “just talk about X for real though” and suddenly people are arguing and you’ll have some regular people that will start believing there might be some truth to what the extremists are saying and the spiral begins. They might never reach the deep end, they’ll take what they’re open to. Someone single and insecure might just adhere to the incel stuff and not the racism, someone who just lost their job when a black person got to keep theirs might adhere to the racism but not to the anti-women stuff…
also the long post on the op is incompatible with my adhd and i have been unable to read it the multiple times i’ve opened it lol. wallatext
I agree all the way.
These guys fucking suck, no doubt, but I really prefer that we put the impetus on users to block communities they don’t like rather than pursue total defederation
Being tolerant without limits not a good way to handle right wing trolls. Trusting right wing trolls to moderate themselves is, imo, not a route to success.
This comic, in my view, does a passable job of summarising the idea of the paradox of tolerance.
I mean we banned lemmygrad and bigotry is against our instance rules.
We banned lemmygrad? I’m not a fan of that either tbh
Tankies can get fucked too. Harmful ideas should not be platformed
Harmful ideas should not be platformed
I think that this is a harmful idea and the moderation team should ban you for it.
See how that can get out of hand? Who gets to decide what is a harmful idea?
I certainly wouldn’t trust you to do it. Would you trust me to do it?
I think this is an incomprehensible idea and the moderation team should ban you for it. It’d be funny. Difficult_Bit_1339 makes the worst argument ever, asked to leave sh.itjust.works
Now you get it.
People being banned for their ideas is a dumb idea because the person who gets to decide what a dumb idea is is often an idiot and will make bad decisions.
You either ban Nazis and similar assholes or your community will be overrun by them, causing the good people to leave.
Prime example: Twitter right now.
The “muh free speech” “argument” doesn’t hold in light of the fact, that this is a privately owned and operated platform at the full discretion of the admins. Free speech is a right to defend people from the government, not to enable every asshole to spew their shit into everyone’s feed.
I often hear the argument “they’ll just go elsewhere,” “they’ll just start new accounts,” etc, to defend not censoring/defederating/blocking/whatever fascist or proto-fascist people or sites. That’s not an argument, that’s a commitment to rolling over for fascists and intolerance. They’re bringing the fight, and not fighting back and making their lives harder is just helping them move the Overton Window further to the right, and making horrific ideas palatable.
If we just left it at that, I’d agree. Reddit had a handful of right-wing media watch subs that would track and report when someone said someting egregious, legally gray or in light with the fascist movement identity (e.g. mythical history to justify legitimacy.) That can not only be used to expose their mask-off faces to the public, but in instances where incitement or threats turn into action, it can be reported to investigators to help track down key players.
So, much the way backpage was helping law enforcement track human traffickers (who did business on backpage) we have the option of leaving them be, but to exploit their intra-sect candor.
it would be better, to be able to block a whole domain/instance per user, like we can do it with communities
Not the prettiest instance, but have they caused any real trouble outside of their own instance? Not much of a fediverse if we just defederate from instances that lean different politically. Especially seems like a weird move to go defederating on other instances this early given y’know, that we just got defederated from beehaw because of one misbehaved asshole.
Given that no bigotry is one of the stated rules of this instance and that bigotry is pretty rampant over on that instance I think it would be appropriate to disassociate with them.
Seems like something you should block individual users over rather than a whole instance
If the instance lets bigots participate then the problem is with the instance itself.
Nice whataboutism you got there, care to come up with an actual argument instead of trying to deviate the discussion?
So only certain bigots count, got it.
Now you’re putting words in my mouth as well?
You’re totally unable to stay on topic, aren’t you?
Bigotry is a matter of personal taste. I found some posts from trans subs talking about cis white men killing people, but I didn’t try to censor them because I’m an adult and possess the ability to ignore them.
I’m not saying we should immediately defederate, but the reason I originally went to check them out was partially because of this comment and the reply from [email protected]
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/207742
When he made that reply, it got rapidly upvoted to +7, while my comment was also sitting at about +7. This morning, several hours later, when a bunch of actual sh.itjust.works users woke up and read the thread, the ratio of votes changed in my favor.
I fear that we are going to deal with a significant level of brigading from that instance, and unlike reddit we don’t really have any tools to combat that.
They also had a good laugh about the troll who posted here about getting us defederated by beehaw. They really don’t like beehaw, or gay people in general.
It’s whatever but we are already defederated with lemmygrad.ml and I feel like this stuff is on that same tier.
Being openly bigoted isn’t a “political leaning” though, and it’s against lemmy.world’s code of conduct as stated on the sidebar link: https://mastodon.world/about
Provide a friendly, safe, and welcoming environment for everyone regardless of gender identity or expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, political affiliation, or other similar characteristic.
No one is saying let’s ban conservatives. This discussion is about defederating an instance that seems to be crawling with alt-right trolls. I don’t understand why that would be a problem.
Like I’d hope that we wouldn’t follow in Reddit’s footsteps of tolerating alt-right bigotry
Defederating isn’t like being fucking censored or whatever; it’s people deciding that they don’t want to be around you
Basically near-every instance did this for Lemmygrad with zero complaint, so it’s fucking weird that there are so many people complaining now when it comes to an instance teeming with alt-right bigotry
Reddit didn’t tolerate alt-right bigotry. What are you on about?
And yes, defederating is censorship. I had a burggit account because I liked the name, but then once they got defederated from everything, I needed to make a new account. That’s censorship.
Lemmygrad, Exploding-Head and Beehaw are all safe-spaces and echo-chambers. They won’t wander outside their zone, which they haven’t. Find it hilarious you’re so huffy about the alt-right, but silent about multiple mods enabling pro-communist content.
how about that whole span of time that r/the_donald was a subreddit lmao
edit: it’s not censorship if you can easily move to another instance with little difficulty and just continue from there, with most of the same communities even
people like you just think someone telling them that they don’t want to hear you is the same as being suppressed
Yes it did, until media brought attention to it, then they banned The Donald and Metacanada and these users just joined other subs where they spewed their poison with the admin’s blessing in the cases where mods from subs that got banned were also modding other subs that didn’t (metacanada mods also modding Canada).
And all of the tankie subreddits were never touched despite having the same content.
The whole reason lemmygrad.ml (and hexbear) got big is literally because their subreddits got banned
Almost like tankie subreddits weren’t gaming the Reddit vote system to push literal propaganda to the front page for years or something
Propaganda is the front page, my dude. Won’t deny T_D was shitty, fuck em, they deserved the ban-hammer for having an echo-chamber.
Whataboutism, try again in a discussion about tankies.
Whataboutism is perfectly valid.
Get your American politics out of your head when talking about global issues. Just makes you look ignorant.
Do not mistake inconvenience for oppression.
That is NOT censorship. Everyone on that instance still has every opportunity to say whatever they’d like. Don’t cry over the fact that it’s not reaching as many people as you want it to.
Obligatory XKCD about this topic.
Agree. I think blocking should be done on an individual basis unless it truly becomes a problem for most users and a turn-off for new users
That place is gross. They have a parent community that is just trans hate. I can’t imagine spending so much energy being a hateful idiot.
Hey kbin users if you want to block this domain just go to https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com and block that domain there.
Perfect!
Now my preferences are in place while others squabble over federation.
Thanks!This. Kbinauts should encourage using the block button, rather than demanding defederation. Curate your own experience, don’t try to curate others’ experience. Please and thank you :)
I was also kinda surprised that sh.itjust.works doesn’t block exploding-heads as most instances I’m aware of do. That coupled with the fact that the instance doesn’t block them but blocks lemmygrad made me think at first sh.itjust.works was going to be some far-right instance, but from what I’ve seen it isn’t. Though, I don’t understand why sh.itjust.works would want to federate with them, considering their content often violates the rules of the instance.
To be fair, I’m a pretty radical leftist and Lemmygrad is a giant cesspool for me.
Yeah okay I get we’re all upset but he has read the patriot act, so…
We should absolutely not turn to defederation as a first action. You know how traditional social media bans opinions that are not acceptable according to themselves?
We must be better than that. It creates a ridiculous otherwise where people think everyone agrees with them and they are never challanged in how they think about things.
I think we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it’s within the rules, meaning people must be polite, not hateful, not breaking the law etc.
