I have a serious question here that I always get when I read news like this. As someone not from the US but having experience with guns through my military training, how is it that toddlers can even pull the trigger of a weapon?
When we had the training for the pistol it was difficult to pull the trigger. IIRC it was even stated that this was by design so that you can’t pull the trigger by accident.
Are there no regulations for such a thing in the US or are toddlers that strong to do it anyway?
In addition to what people are saying about trigger pull weight there are an unfortunate number of people that think reducing trigger pull weight to pointlessly low numbers is cool. If you’re a competition shooter it might be worth it to a point, but anyone leaving a handgun unsecured and accessible in a vehicle isn’t a person who takes firearms seriously.
There are a ton of different kinds of pistols, and all have varying types of trigger weight. If you trained in a EU military, you probably trained with something like a Beretta 92 or CZ 75, both of which have a double action/single action (“DA/SA”) design, where the long DA is a safety feature. After the first shot, the gun will be in SA mode, with a much lighter weight for easier follow-up shots. One can also put a DA/SA gun into SA mode by chambering a round and cocking the hammer. Most consider this to be an unsafe way to carry a pistol without a further manual safety (both the Beretta and CZ have one for carrying in this manner).
Glock is the most common pistol make in the US, and they use a striker fired design. A striker fired pistol is typically equipped with a medium-weight trigger - lighter than a DA pull, but not as light as a SA.
Because the toddler shot himself in the chest, he was also likely using his thumbs, rather than index finger on the trigger. I think a toddler would easily have the strength to pull a striker trigger, and definitely a SA.
Granted, this is now almost a decade now but I was trained with the HK P8 which, according to what I can find, has a trigger weight of 24N (SA) and 55N (DA)
This would be 2.4kg force or 5.6kg force needed for pulling the trigger.
But as you said, it would make sense that even this is easily overcome depending on how you pull the trigger and the thumbs would be stronger doing that, especially with both hands.
My American brain can only understand lbs, but converting it, 5.6kg = more than 12lbs, which is on the high end even for DA guns. I believe both the Sig 226 and CZ 75 are around 9-10lbs in DA. For comparison, Glocks have about a 6lb trigger pull, which would be barely heavier than your P8’s SA trigger weight.
i have an additional question if you or anyone else have the time for an answer, because i don’t know much about guns - how can a toddler have any chance of releasing the gun safety? (and the bonus rhetorical question of how it can be called a safety if a toddler without knowledge of what a gun is can release it; i thought we figured that stuff out ages ago according to my ability to open child safe bottles)
Two points: 1. most guns don’t have safeties, and 2. safeties are pretty easy to toggle
First, many guns don’t have any sort of safety like you see in the movies - “toggle this button to make the gun able to fire.” Most safety features in current guns are to prevent the gun from going of accidentally - i.e. other than someone pulling the trigger. Therefore, the most common safeties are a trigger dongle and a firing pin block, which makes the gun drop-safe. In other words, if you drop the gun, it won’t go off, but if you pull the trigger, it will go bang. A Glock is a prototypical example of a gun with no safeties - most police departments in the US issue Glocks to their officers, and if used correctly (i.e. keeping your finger off the trigger), they are thought to be very safe (as far as guns go).
That said, for guns that do have safeties, safeties are generally very easy to toggle on and off. A 1911 style pistol is fairly common and has several safeties. 1911s have both a grip safety and a safety on the frame. If the gun is on safe, the safety is “up”, and when you grab it, you release the grip safety, and your thumb should sweep down and release the frame safety. Many people “ride” the frame safety, which means they just keep their thumb on the safety since it’s a comfortable ledge. Once you’re done firing, you should sweep your thumb up to put the gun back on safe. Both safeties are intended for the same purpose as Glocks - to prevent the gun from firing when you don’t intend it to (like, into your leg when carried in a holster). They are not intended to make the gun an inert object.
Many new gun owners want a safety because they think it’s an added layer of protection against you doing something dumb. And it is, to an extent, but once you become more familiar with safe gun handling, a safety is basically extraneous - it generally won’t help from anything catastrophic (like what happened in this article), and is a potential point of failure (for example, there are stories about marines with berettas having them go from safe to unsafe because of plane vibrations). Once an owner trains to become proficient with their pistol, having a safety or not is basically a wash - doesn’t matter either way, as long as you’re handling the gun properly.
With all that said, that means any pistol that is not secured by a lock or case is 100% unsafe to be left around children, safety or not. There are plenty of “quick access” safes that people can install in their cars that will allow a pistol to be secured, but also retrieved quickly. Having a totally unsecured firearm is simply negligence.
The handgun does not necessarily have a safety. Also, many people will keep a round loaded in the chamber so that they can respond to threats as quickly as possible. Draw and pull the trigger. Leaving the gun in your car probably doesn’t fit in with this strategy, though. I think mixing these circumstances with a toddler is pretty fucking stupid.
The strength required to pull the trigger will depend on what kind of gun it is, and how they’ve configured it with the springs inside. A double action revolver will usually require lot more force and travel than a semi automatic pistol.
Best guess, without reading the article, is that the gun was the in-car gun or the carry gun left in the car. It was likely loaded with one in the chamber and no safety or safety off while carried (so you can shoot people faster…for all those gunfights you get into).
I CC and will definitely unsafe my gun when walking at night or in a shady area…but otherwise it is buttoned up and safed.
I have seen that while doing a bit of research that the strength needed can be lower for shooting competition which also makes sense but there you have a trained person in a controlled environment for a very specific purpose.
I have a serious question here that I always get when I read news like this. As someone not from the US but having experience with guns through my military training, how is it that toddlers can even pull the trigger of a weapon?
When we had the training for the pistol it was difficult to pull the trigger. IIRC it was even stated that this was by design so that you can’t pull the trigger by accident.
Are there no regulations for such a thing in the US or are toddlers that strong to do it anyway?
In addition to what people are saying about trigger pull weight there are an unfortunate number of people that think reducing trigger pull weight to pointlessly low numbers is cool. If you’re a competition shooter it might be worth it to a point, but anyone leaving a handgun unsecured and accessible in a vehicle isn’t a person who takes firearms seriously.
There are a ton of different kinds of pistols, and all have varying types of trigger weight. If you trained in a EU military, you probably trained with something like a Beretta 92 or CZ 75, both of which have a double action/single action (“DA/SA”) design, where the long DA is a safety feature. After the first shot, the gun will be in SA mode, with a much lighter weight for easier follow-up shots. One can also put a DA/SA gun into SA mode by chambering a round and cocking the hammer. Most consider this to be an unsafe way to carry a pistol without a further manual safety (both the Beretta and CZ have one for carrying in this manner).
Glock is the most common pistol make in the US, and they use a striker fired design. A striker fired pistol is typically equipped with a medium-weight trigger - lighter than a DA pull, but not as light as a SA.
Because the toddler shot himself in the chest, he was also likely using his thumbs, rather than index finger on the trigger. I think a toddler would easily have the strength to pull a striker trigger, and definitely a SA.
Granted, this is now almost a decade now but I was trained with the HK P8 which, according to what I can find, has a trigger weight of 24N (SA) and 55N (DA)
This would be 2.4kg force or 5.6kg force needed for pulling the trigger.
But as you said, it would make sense that even this is easily overcome depending on how you pull the trigger and the thumbs would be stronger doing that, especially with both hands.
My American brain can only understand lbs, but converting it, 5.6kg = more than 12lbs, which is on the high end even for DA guns. I believe both the Sig 226 and CZ 75 are around 9-10lbs in DA. For comparison, Glocks have about a 6lb trigger pull, which would be barely heavier than your P8’s SA trigger weight.
There are mods that reduce the trigger pull. I had a friend with a 22 that brought a kit online to help him in shooting competitions.
i have an additional question if you or anyone else have the time for an answer, because i don’t know much about guns - how can a toddler have any chance of releasing the gun safety? (and the bonus rhetorical question of how it can be called a safety if a toddler without knowledge of what a gun is can release it; i thought we figured that stuff out ages ago according to my ability to open child safe bottles)
Two points: 1. most guns don’t have safeties, and 2. safeties are pretty easy to toggle
First, many guns don’t have any sort of safety like you see in the movies - “toggle this button to make the gun able to fire.” Most safety features in current guns are to prevent the gun from going of accidentally - i.e. other than someone pulling the trigger. Therefore, the most common safeties are a trigger dongle and a firing pin block, which makes the gun drop-safe. In other words, if you drop the gun, it won’t go off, but if you pull the trigger, it will go bang. A Glock is a prototypical example of a gun with no safeties - most police departments in the US issue Glocks to their officers, and if used correctly (i.e. keeping your finger off the trigger), they are thought to be very safe (as far as guns go).
That said, for guns that do have safeties, safeties are generally very easy to toggle on and off. A 1911 style pistol is fairly common and has several safeties. 1911s have both a grip safety and a safety on the frame. If the gun is on safe, the safety is “up”, and when you grab it, you release the grip safety, and your thumb should sweep down and release the frame safety. Many people “ride” the frame safety, which means they just keep their thumb on the safety since it’s a comfortable ledge. Once you’re done firing, you should sweep your thumb up to put the gun back on safe. Both safeties are intended for the same purpose as Glocks - to prevent the gun from firing when you don’t intend it to (like, into your leg when carried in a holster). They are not intended to make the gun an inert object.
Many new gun owners want a safety because they think it’s an added layer of protection against you doing something dumb. And it is, to an extent, but once you become more familiar with safe gun handling, a safety is basically extraneous - it generally won’t help from anything catastrophic (like what happened in this article), and is a potential point of failure (for example, there are stories about marines with berettas having them go from safe to unsafe because of plane vibrations). Once an owner trains to become proficient with their pistol, having a safety or not is basically a wash - doesn’t matter either way, as long as you’re handling the gun properly.
With all that said, that means any pistol that is not secured by a lock or case is 100% unsafe to be left around children, safety or not. There are plenty of “quick access” safes that people can install in their cars that will allow a pistol to be secured, but also retrieved quickly. Having a totally unsecured firearm is simply negligence.
The handgun does not necessarily have a safety. Also, many people will keep a round loaded in the chamber so that they can respond to threats as quickly as possible. Draw and pull the trigger. Leaving the gun in your car probably doesn’t fit in with this strategy, though. I think mixing these circumstances with a toddler is pretty fucking stupid.
The strength required to pull the trigger will depend on what kind of gun it is, and how they’ve configured it with the springs inside. A double action revolver will usually require lot more force and travel than a semi automatic pistol.
Best guess, without reading the article, is that the gun was the in-car gun or the carry gun left in the car. It was likely loaded with one in the chamber and no safety or safety off while carried (so you can shoot people faster…for all those gunfights you get into). I CC and will definitely unsafe my gun when walking at night or in a shady area…but otherwise it is buttoned up and safed.
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I have seen that while doing a bit of research that the strength needed can be lower for shooting competition which also makes sense but there you have a trained person in a controlled environment for a very specific purpose.
Or they bought it so their toddler can shoot himself easier with their gun.
Highspeed man-children making it a hair-trigger so they can fight off an assault squad of gangsters.