• mizu@mander.xyz
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    1 year ago

    got nothing against vegans it’s just when they try to force it into others

    • max@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      Very few will force it on others, though. Anyway, I find it hilarious how people can get riled up about the idea of a person not eating meat or any animal products. I’ve seen it often that they take it personally for some reason and will “compensate by eating extra bacon/steak/chicken”. It’s bonkers.

      • taj@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Eh, I don’t care what you eat. But I find very offensive, naive, and just plain wrong the idea that it’s impossible to sustainably raise animals for meat, eggs, dairy, etc as many vegans will try to insist.

        Does it cost more? Yes. Can we raise as many as we do today using conventional farming techniques? No. Will/should we all cut back on our meat, dairy, etc? Yes. But, then again being more mindful of what we all eat is going to be required regardless, if we’re going to manage to feed everyone.

        • usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 year ago

          Claiming that something is on its whole sustainable is rather loosely defined (i.e what level of impact is considered sustainable and on what metrics), so let’s look a little closer. What many are saying there is that process is still going to inherently be much more inefficient compared to growing plants directly for human consumption

          It turns out to be the case that the worst-case production of any plants-based production comes out ahead compared to best-case production of meat, dairy, etc. on virtually all environmental metrics

          If I source my beef or lamb from low-impact producers, could they have a lower footprint than plant-based alternatives? The evidence suggests, no: plant-based foods emit fewer greenhouse gases than meat and dairy, regardless of how they are produced.

          […]

          Plant-based protein sources – tofu, beans, peas and nuts – have the lowest carbon footprint. This is certainly true when you compare average emissions. But it’s still true when you compare the extremes: there’s not much overlap in emissions between the worst producers of plant proteins, and the best producers of meat and dairy.

          https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat

          Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].

          https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/htm

          Even true of synthetic fertilizer usage compared to the best case of animal manure

          Thus, shifting from animal to plant sources of protein can substantially reduce fertilizer requirements, even with maximal use of animal manure

          https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344922006528

          In terms of biodiversity

          Livestock farmers often claim that their grazing systems “mimic nature”. If so, the mimicry is a crude caricature. A review of evidence from over 100 studies found that when livestock are removed from the land, the abundance and diversity of almost all groups of wild animals increases

          https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/16/most-damaging-farm-products-organic-pasture-fed-beef-lamb

          If we compare more typical production rather than best to worst, the differences are even more apparent

          To produce 1 kg of protein from kidney beans required approximately eighteen times less land, ten times less water, nine times less fuel, twelve times less fertilizer and ten times less pesticide in comparison to producing 1 kg of protein from beef

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25374332/

      • PaulL@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        It’s funny: the forum I help moderate has a strong contingent of zero-carb/carnivores, and their experience is the same, only in reverse. They get shamed for not eating plants. I guess the moral is that people will criticize us, no matter what we do.

    • art@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Yeah, they’re always outside the Steakhouse picketing. Running at me constantly with a fork full of green vegetables.

      THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM THAT I CONSTANTLY HAVE IN REAL LIFE.

      • Galven@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You joke, but there have been cases of steakhouses and butcher shops having troubles with protestors. It’s not an everyday thing, but we are talking about a small, crazy portion of an already fringe group.

          • Galven@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            …that is a profoundly stupid way to look at it, you cannot exist without hurting something or someone, your mere existence causes pain to some people, and they’d much rather you stop existing, are you going to oblige them too? To define pain and suffering as unacceptable in all forms is to deny reality.

            • bulbasaur@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Nice ableism. No one is forcing you to support the rape and murder of sentient beings so you can put their corpses in your mouth. You can choose not to do it, don’t pretend your hands are tied

              • Galven@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                No, we can’t, we’re omnivores, while you can survive on plant-based sources of protein, in the long term, it causes problems. Getting the right nutrients is difficult and expensive, even in the short-term, meaning that you have to be profoundly privileged to do it, so technically, you’re classist.

                And you didn’t answer my question, what about all the other suffering you support? People who suffer so that you can be comfortable, everyone from the avocado farmers and factory workers to the bugs/animals that get poisoned by various pesticides? How is their pain ok, while the cows’ pain is unacceptable? Do you understand that you can’t exist without causing some pain and discomfort, somewhere to something?? The only reason you have a problem with eating meat is because that is right in front of you.

                  • Galven@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    I mean, yes, you’re hypocrites, I’m glad you agree with me. So long acknowledge it, and don’t bother me, I don’t care what you do.