A lawsuit filed by more victims of the sex trafficking operation claims that Pornhub’s moderation staff ignored reports of their abuse videos.
Sixty-one additional women are suing Pornhub’s parent company, claiming that the company failed to take down videos of their abuse as part of the sex trafficking operation Girls Do Porn. They’re suing the company and its sites for sex trafficking, racketeering, conspiracy to commit racketeering, and human trafficking.
The complaint, filed on Tuesday, includes what it claims are internal emails obtained by the plaintiffs, represented by Holm Law Group, between Pornhub moderation staff. The emails allegedly show that Pornhub had only one moderator to review 700,000 potentially abusive videos, and that the company intentionally ignored repeated reports from victims in those videos.
The damages and restitution they seek amounts to more than $311,100,000. They demand a jury trial, and seek damages of $5 million per plaintiff, as well as restitution for all the money Aylo, the new name for Pornhub’s parent company, earned “marketing, selling and exploiting Plaintiffs’ videos in an amount that exceeds one hundred thousand dollars for each plaintiff.”
The plaintiffs are 61 more unnamed “Jane Doe” victims of Girls Do Porn, adding to the 60 that sued Pornhub in 2020 for similar claims.
Girls Do Porn was a federally-convicted sex trafficking ring that coerced young women into filming pornographic videos under the pretense of “modeling” gigs. In some cases, the women were violently abused. The operators told them that the videos would never appear online, so that their home communities wouldn’t find out, but they uploaded the footage to sites like Pornhub, where the videos went viral—and in many instances, destroyed their lives. Girls Do Porn was an official Pornhub content partner, with its videos frequently appearing on the front page, where they gathered millions of views.
read more: https://www.404media.co/girls-do-porn-victims-sue-pornhub-for-300-million/
Given their videos were so highly ranked, the prevalence of coercion in the industry, and the fact that it’s often impossible to tell if someone’s been threatened behind the scenes, it’s highly likely that most people reading this who have watched porn online have also watched plenty of videos of actual rapes.
This is a simple fact, but one which a lot of people would rather deny, rather than admit their part in perpetuating it, while wondering why watching porn makes them sad. Partly, I suspect, because deep down they know the truth of it.
I wonder how many products you’ve bought in your life were made by child labor.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism
Which is why I dislike people who attack those critical of capitalism’s excesses for being hypocrites.
In the real world, most of us are hypocrites and part of the problem. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to be better or be critical of things that are bad about society.
Complaining about a system you’re stuck in doesn’t make you a hypocrite for being stuck in it
But there is something circular and self-serving about saying “it’s not me, it’s the system, and I can do nothing about that system.”
Notice how this offloads all the responsibility and blame elsewhere, forever, while requiring no change whatsoever of us?
That doesn’t sit well with me. There’s some truth in it but there’s also a lot of convenience in it.
Everyone can try to change the system, and you will need a lot of people to follow you to make that happen, which is not easy. So saying that “I can do nothing about the system” may not always be so untrue.
I would say, if you can’t do it alone, then start swaying others. But the reality is that anyone who wants to get involved will find the world is full of organizations already off the ground and doing important work. Find your fit and make your contribution.
“But I can only do a little - I’ll never be able to solve ALL the problems”
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness.
I’ll eat meat that comes from large scale animal torture, my taxes have paid for bombs to kill civilians, I’ve spent money on countless products that exploit an untold amount of people. My country is one that benefits from resource extraction of the third world.
I get to live in relative opulence while billions have a fraction of the quality of life I do.
At the end of the day, I just accept these things and continue to live my life.
I’ve always seen myself as a good person. But I figured I can’t be a good person and do all that. That mismatch in identity caused me to re-evaluate my position. Turns out I’m not actually willing to give up anything from above. So I’m probably a bad person.
That way there’s no hypocrisy.
The Bible actually brings this up in an interesting way. Rich man goes up to Jesus and asks how to get into Heaven. Jesus says sell all your belongings and give the proceeds to charity. Then follow me. Rich man cried.
We’re all going to hell.
We’re arguably all evil, yeah. If you let a kid drown, you’re evil. If you let a kid drown 5000 miles away, because you’d rather buy a pc game or something you don’t really need, than donate to charity, that’s also evil. If you donate 50 bucks at christmas, to prevent one kid from drowning, that doesn’t mean you’re not evil if you let another 100 drown during the rest of the year.
People have a really hard time accepting that they’re not good. Vanity is the Devil’s favourite sin.
But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t at least try to be better. It’s not because you and I eat meat, that we should also go kick a puppy to death. That puppy does matter. Stop kicking puppies to death!
Of course, I agree with you. I would never initiate an action with the intention of causing harm - like kicking a puppy to death.
I also try to help when not too inconvenient for me. I typically give spare cash to homeless whenever they show up in front of me. I try and tip service workers well. I donate to a few non-profits, although they are mainly open source projects and is admittedly more ideologically driven than ethically. I try to be kind and polite and compassionate to the people in my life.
I’m just not about to dedicate my life to feeding the homeless or caring for orphans. I don’t care enough besides giving a few bucks here and there. I’m simply just more concerned about myself and my family.
Having said that, of course we can do better and we should try. For example the animal thing. If lab grown meat was at a comparable quality and price, I would prefer it every time. If I can choose the option of less harm without lowering my quality of life I would in a heartbeat. But I actually won’t lower my quality of life, at least not significantly.
It’s a similar story with environmentalism. The only real way to lower carbon emissions to a level where the climate isn’t at long term risk is for billions of people to stop using so much energy, stop eating so much meat & carbon heavy foods (almonds, avocados, etc), stop driving cars, stop using A/C, stop buying items that get sent on cargo ships all across the world, etc.
We can reduce it with renewable energies and plastic substitutes and reducing personal usage, carbon taxes… whatever. But nobody is actually willing to go back to the 18th century. Any modern society at such a scale that we have will inevitably change the climate. The Unabomber had it right 50 years ago and nobody wants to admit it.
For example even renewables. To build solar panels requires a supply chain with a massive amount of carbon being released into the air. You can’t escape it. Just like I think you can’t escape evils against humans in our society. The machine is cold and uncaring. The gears will not slow down just because a child (or a million) gets caught inside of them. It will keep spinning unrelentingly as if nothing happened, crushing without feeling.
Maybe I’m just cynical, I don’t know.
I like that quote you give, vanity is the devil’s favorite sin. Question, are you a believer? Do you believe in a God? The Christian God?
The first honest comment I’ve seen here.
The main problem with criticisms of capitalism Is that they don’t include “trying to be better.” As in: practical solutions. I think many of us use “capitalism” as a dark hole we can shove all the blame into. But no one ever has any realistic suggestions for change. There are plenty of fantasy ideas. Anarcho-syndicalism will save us if we overthrow the world order tomorrow!
I understand it’s a deeply embedded system and not simple to do away with. But just using it as a scapegoat constantly without any actual plan or will to depart from it is in fact an empty approach.
Eh, I think that’s just hivemind talking. Every discussion I’ve ever had about the ethics of capitalism has some talk of how you, as an individual, can be better. Buy less, live humbly, vet sources, and if you’re in the position to make an actual IMPACT, do what you can.
For the individual, pretty much the only real effect we can have is doing what I just said, and spreading the idea to anyone who will listen.
Indeed. You can know that your own life is dependant on the exploitation of others whilst working to make that less so.
I have to. The alternative is death.
I find this word brought out all the time and used as a scapegoat for us to pile all our sins onto and then stone it to death. It’s not us, it’s capitalism!
It’s not about piling your sins on a scapegoat, it’s about being realistic. One CANNOT live ethically if you consider the sins of whatever company they’re buying from the sins of the consumer.
The broader goal of saying there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism is saying, “hey this system is flawed, and we’re all perpetuating it. Let’s acknowledge that so we can work together better it.”
I have seen this argument a few times lately but I’m not sure i understand it completely.
Is the argument that person 1 trades with company 1 which is seemingly run ethically. Company 1 trades with company 2, 2 with 3 etc.
And then eventually company x trades with x+1 which is some human rights breaking company. And then all seemingly ethical companies have this link or trail of trade partners which eventually end up at some unethical company?
Pretty much. The idea is that capitalism forces companies to create goods at the cheapest possible price. Eventually, this means the company will rely on outsourcing labor to a country with less-than-stellar human rights conditions. For instance, we all know how shit most Chinese factory labor conditions are. Now think of just how many things you find are “made in China” stamped.
At the most undeniable level there’s that. You can also take the approach that any kind of profit that a company is making, they’re only making off the labor of their workers. That profit, thus, should belong to them, not the capital owners. This position is a bit tougher to argue, but it’s also valid.
Alright, that makes sense, thanks for the info :)
No problem, friend. I’m not an expert by any stretch, but any further questions, I’ll do my best to answer them.
We have likely bought many, often after lying to ourselves about it.
Do two wrongs make a right?
Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Of course two wrongs don’t make a right, but get off the high horse and join your fellow man against the proper targets instead of fighting people who should be allies. That’s the point they’re making with their tu quo que.
I guess it would depend on if the person wears clothing or not
I practice ethical nudism 😎
Not to mention the animal suffering we’re all responsible for with all our soaps and cosmetic products being sprayed into their eyes and rubbed into their skin to make sure it’s safe for us. And while I believe animals can be raised for meat humanely and ethically, they’re very often not.
I avoid this by not watching porn that makes me sad. There’s plenty of consensual, happy, joyful sex-positive porn out there.
While your point is valid about this particular situation (which is horrible and criminal on multiple levels), your overbroad generalization of porn and the implied assumption of guilt in the viewers is what’s led folks to react negatively to your statement.
On a larger level, this kind of statement plays into the puritanical doctrines towards sex that paint it as a negative force, and subsequently leads to the twisting of a positive, creative act into a negative expression of power and rape in those that accept those doctrines.
Porn is not at fault here, nor are its viewers. Those at fault in this crime are the producers and publishers, who were well aware of the abuses happening under their watch, and deceived their viewers into believing they were observing consensual performance acts. I hope that these women get every cent and more, and it would be excellent to see a class action suit from Pornhub’s subscribers arise in tandem to and in support of their complaint.
Exactly, it’s not too hard to find videos where you can see by their faces and sounds that they’re having a good time. If they’re not then it’s a turn off
That works for you but a lot of people get off on the “dominating” side of things, especially women.
I’m like you, I hate that kind of stuff so I’m pretty sure I’ve never gotten off to it, but it’s popular for a reason.
This is why I stick to hentai. No traficking or coercion or questionable consent there, just a bunch of nerds doing what they love.
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You joke, but I remember an author who apparently had a popular series on nhentai (might be getting it mixed up) about a guy with 2 girlfriends. Anyways, she (the author) committed suicide, allegedly due to the working conditions, and the publishing company gave a very blank face statement about it.
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Sure there’s content out there that depicts nasty abuse. But if it’s animated, then it’s fiction.
I feel like whether the content is enjoyable/good is a personal opinion and the fact that anyone thinks it’s wholesome enough or not is irrelevant.
It’s a difficult area to research because it is impossible to know the direction of the causal arrow; predators may seek out the most violent porn, or sexual violence might be normalised by viewing it, and quite likely a bit of both. But you can’t just say that the production didn’t involve real people therefore no one is harmed.
This is from an anti-porn site so clearly not neutral: Is There a Connection Between Violent Crime and Watching Porn?
Very little of the evidence they cite tries to distinguish between violent porn and any porn but there are some snippets worth taking seriously [numbers in brackets are the references]:
I don’t have the answer. I am not against porn in general. I am obviously against porn where performers have been coerced or mistreated (most of it, tbf) and I do think it is healthier to seek out porn which is explicitly consensual.
Men who are interested in having real, consensual sex could probably do themselves a lot of favours by seeking out female porn directors who are making woman-friendly porn. And, given the link between watching sexual violence and doing sexual violence, whatever the direction of the causal arrow, if you don’t want to be that guy avoiding violent porn is probably a good idea.
There’s a ton of wholesome consensual adult-angled 2D stuff out there. Like a ton. The concept of hentai as all underage rape fantasy is a myth. Plus if I stumble across some unmoderated creepy stuff when I’m browsing new, I can just close it and move on without the burden of knowing I saw a real thing that happened to a real person.
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Drawing shotacon, as Zeus intended.
But what is the prevalence of coercion in the industry? Is that known? Can it be known?
Most people I’ve heard speak about their experiences in the porn industry say this type of coercion is rare. GDP was a unique situation. Virtually everyone knew (or should have known) they were bad news for years before law enforcement got involved. I remember arguing with people about this. And actually one of the things people said was “who cares, this kind of thing is everywhere in the industry, they know what they’re getting into.” So I actually think that not only is there no evidence to support that, but this idea can even be harmful by painting the better behaved studios with a broad stroke, and giving the fewer bad actors cover to keep operating.
I think the best way to help sex workers, if this is something that concerns you, is to treat them with respect, call out the hateful stigma against their work, and support efforts to organize for worker protections. Despite the fact that most studios are not out there raping people left and right, like most industries, there is often a power imbalance between workers and owners and this sometimes leads to exploitation.
I am a regular consumer of online porn. And I’ll admit, I loved their videos. Now knowing what was going on, that’s on me to do some thinking, i have probably watched a rape and helped the perpetrator make money from that act. That’s hard on the conscience. I don’t know what to think about it.
The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the producers. You hold as much guilt for that action as anyone who has ever purchased a cell phone has for the conditions for the workers are subjected to. Which isn’t to say 0, but it’s so small that it may as well be.
Really? You don’t know how to feel about jerking off to rape? I know how to feel about you. POS.
Cool, I know what to think about you. Irrational and judgemental.
You’re really going to place blame at a dude who just saw what was, presumably, some good, legal porn on a legitimate source, freely available to anyone? Rather than the producers? Or in anywhere near equal measure? Enough to call them a piece of shit? Man I’m glad I don’t know you.
Not all.of us see porn as necessary or useful. Let alone a right. Yall are pathetic addicts in my eyes. And you are absolutely responsible for ensuring that the porn you watch is adult and consensual.
And you’re a raging social deviant in my eyes, willing to attack someone trying to do better around something society deems acceptable. We can do this all day, sling mud, and shout into the void, or we can have an actual dialog.
Also that’s ridiculous. Anyone manufacturing anything is the responsible party for ensuring their stuff is safe. Or have you never heard of a manufacturer recall? It’s the same principle. They made bad porn, they get the trouble.
Yes i am a social deviant.
They made bad porn because people want it. People did this.
And they make computers and cell phones with slavery because we want it. It cuts both ways. Help people be better or sit down.
Im complaining about abuse st least, everyone else is defending the criminals
Well… no. But even if viewers were, how do you go about ensuring that it’s abuse free? It’s not like you can just google the production company. There are plenty of times where there aren’t any publicly available allegations so you can never be sure. When it comes to amateur porn, how do you know if their partner is forcing them into it or not? There’s no way to prove anything for sure unless there is a public record of allegations.
Charitable comment of the decade right there.
Noticed how they said “what to think”, not “how to feel”?
Jeez. I know how to feel about the act itself. It’s awful of course. What I don’t know is how to deal with is knowing that I did that. I can’t change what I did and I can try my damnedest to not do it again. But how should I deal with knowing what I did and the guilt and shame post facto.
For the record my guy, eatthecake is a raging lunatic. Keep doing better. No one’s perfect and realizing that some of the things you may have thought were ethical, aren’t is a good first step.
Don’t beat yourself up over it. Everyone makes mistakes, and the true harm was already done when the film was shot. Your contribution to the harm is minimal.
Maybe you should think about your actions more in future. Look into the consequences. Donate some money to a shelter. If you’re actually sorry then you can try and contribute to helping the people you hurt. Kudos for recocgnising that you hsve caused hurt and caring.
I doubt they have empathy, i also doubt the average porn watcher has empathy. Women have been screaming for years that the sex industry is abusive but we are howled down by the sex positive marketing industry. Its all about the money and men will pay for rape happily.
Funny hearing you of all people say anything about empathy.
Ok, i feel for the victims so that means i have no empathy right? I really do think tbe rapists and violent assholes can die in a fire. So i should die in a fire. I get it.
You’re only extending empathy when it’s convenient. I feel for the victims, the unknowing consumer, all of the other rape victims in the world, and you as well.
While I don’t disagree, I haven’t engaged with eatthecake for a reason.
I don’t think you have to be a genius, to understand why someone might be so angry about this topic.
I think we can empathize with them, but that it’s better not to engage.
You dlnt feel.for the victims. You’re a liar.
You know “average porn watcher” includes a very large percentage of women too, right? Every single comment of yours is filled with hateful nonsense.
Bollocks, you think women cant be rapists?
Hate their videos, most of the girls always look bored or not into it, which is now clear why. That’s why there’s a rise in homemade, Indy models and couples putting up the best videos recently, cause you can tell the people involved are actually into it and enjoying it.
These things move in cycles.
People want amateur porn.
Companies don’t.
Amateur porn rises until it gets purged, then a few years later it rises again.
I think the bigger problem is, you as a consumer have no way of knowing. And it’s SO prevalent, that yeah, you almost certainly have. But I can’t really know, or do much as a consumer. Don’t make it like the people just watching are the ones perpetuating the problem instead of the ones who are producing this shit.
I can always kind of tell. Half those videos the girls look straight up scared and not enjoying it
I can’t say for sure if I’ve ever seen any of these videos, but I have seen some with similarly bored looking models. I tend to avoid them just on the basis of them being boring, but now I’ll reevaluate and… Frankly I don’t know what I can really do with the information, but we’ll cross that bridge another time.
Sounds like 99% of the Asian porn I run into. Big turn off.
Alright, get rid of your phone. And whoa, if you have an iPhone, you might as well be pushing those Foxconn employees over the edge to their death. Everyone who bought a diamond is evil too. Do you love chocolate? You monster! Children most likely collected that. Clothes? My dear boy, you are supporting the exploitation of third world poors. Did you buy cheap veggies? Bloody psycho, you might as well be standing with a gun over the hordes of immigrants picking most of those for unliveable wages. Go to the cinema, watch a video on youtube, or listen to music on spotify, or vote for a conservative? How dare you support industries that have known child molesters, wage slaves, lobby for worse living standards, donate to hate groups, and and and?
“Oh, but that’s involuntary, I need those to survive”. Do you? Do you really? Did you need to buy a new phone? Is chocolate really necessary? Why don’t you pick your own fruit? Music, video, and other pleasures aren’t necessary to survive either.
Do you have an argument other than a tu quoque?
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That’s a lot of words for “I know, but I really don’t want to give up my porn 😭”
Nice way to justify buying another iPhone.
So you’re fine with the fact that you’ve almost certainly, essentially guaranteed to have, masturbated to a woman being raped? What the living fuck is wrong with you?
“Fine with” is probably too far. I think they’re pointing out that, for example, your phone contains cobalt which was likely mined unethically, perhaps by a child, perhaps resulting in their death. Is therefore buying a phone inherently wrong? Not essentially. Nor is porn inherently wrong. The abusers in these scenarios are in the wrong, not necessarily the end consumer.
It could even be argued that rather than being some sort of monster for being unknowingly subjected to footage of a sexual assault, that the viewer is also now being harmed themselves.
Furthermore, I’m not familiar with the “Girls Do Porn” channel/company/whatever but it sounds to me that the concept was porn created by women. Wether sound or not logically, the intent seemed ideally to be a safer porn environment, like reduced patriarchy flavored porn. So in this case the company responsible actively preyed on people trying to find a more consensual and equitable pornography.
There is definitely a crime here, but it isn’t the horny guy cranking away in the privacy of his home.
Thank you. This is exactly the point I was making.
Its not impossible to research the porn you consume to ensure that you’re not getting off to someone being sexually abused or raped.
My cell phone is something I require to access society. I cannot work without one, I cannot be a functional adult in society without one. I go every day without masturbating to women being sexually abused, and there is no reason whatsoever someone has to do that. It’s not the same at all, and its telling that men see “Please stop masturbating knowingly to women being raped” and immediately compare doing that with unethical consumption in general. It’s not comparable. I’m sorry, there really is nothing comparable to sexually pleasing yourself to a video of a woman being sexually abused. It makes me literally sick to my stomach that so many men are clearly totally fine with doing that.
Again, the porn is not the problem. There is nothing inherently wrong with making or watching porn. The predators are the problem.
Two things to consider:
One, I guarantee you have watched and will watch again, a major Hollywood movie featuring victims of abuse by directors, producers, other actors. Even child victims. Hollywood is widely recognized for being a dark and evil place with imbalances of power and open secrets about exploitation. But watching movies is not inherently evil. The best you can do is be deliberate in your choices and try your best to not support the bad guys.
Two, where does the moral imperative end? Ok, so you’ve decided that entertainment in the form a sexual performance is fundamentally different than movies/tv/theater/music. You abstain from participating because you believe it is unethical. Do you then believe in censorship? Surely if it is categorically wrong it should be made illegal? Better safe than sorry. But who gets to control the terms of censorship? What about the woman of color who is making enough doing porn to empower themselves in a society that is essentially constructed to deprive them of power? Is it right to take away that power due, ironically, to the actions of the same type of bad guy that limits their power in the first place?
Prohibition does not work. Not for drugs, not for alcohol, not for porn, and of the three I listed it is arguably the healthiest pastime. The solution is openness and oversight. Stop forcing porn talent to exist in some walled off dim corner of the internet. Eliminate the stigma. Give me that new Netflix Original porn with credits and funding. But it still wont be perfect. But that still doesn’t make it fundamentally wrong.
Some regulation for the porn industry would be nice, how about auditors and some method of government vetting to ensure the rights of sex workers in general.
I will not consume it for many reasons, I’m a woman and porn is written and filmed to be exploitative of bodies like mine. Thats not and never is going to appeal to me. Erotica exists, drawings exist, forms of ethical sexuality exist from which I can consume.
Note that porn itself is not some godly byproduct of open-minded sexual liberation. A large portion of it is sadistic fantasy of abusing women, and I strongly question the long term impact of exposing teenage boys to content depicting women being victimized - even in a consensual context. What are the long term ramifications of hyper sexualizing women in pornography? What is the effect with regards to perception of women, with regards to the proliferation of misogyny?
And why is porn so infantile, so pseudo-pedophilic? Why all the teen shit? Why all the jailbait shit, the barely legal and so on. Am I supposed to ignore this, and pretend that the existence of this industry has no tangible impact on my life? Am I supposed to believe that the porn industry played no part in creating my rapist, in creating a culture whereby raping women is seen as desirable by men who do not empathize with women?
I think banning ogranized commercial pornography and instituting universal basic income would pretty readily solve this problem, even for the sex workers who can now choose to produce their own pornography for non-financial non-survival reasons if they want to. Anything less than that doesn’t adequately address the way this industry exploits women, both within the industry and outside of it.
And your cell phone was, at least assuming you live in a developed country, most likely replaced before it was necessary. You, and I, and every other consumer, caused that cobalt mine to have to produce a little more, which caused another chain of human suffering. Now do something about it. Oh, you can’t because you’re one powerless voice going against some of the wealthiest corporations in the world. Make friends, fight together, and collectively something may change.
Thats all fine and well, but you don’t have to masturbate to women being sexually abused. At the very least you can vet the content you’re consuming to be as sure as you possibly can be that you’re not doing that. Otherwise, as I stated in another comment, you see masturbating to women being sexually abused as an acceptable consequence of consuming pornography.
What happens when the producers actively deceive people? You can vet all you want, these companies -gasp- lie so that they can make more money
Right, so then you inadvertently masturbating to a woman being raped is an acceptable consequence so that you can consume porn? If it wasn’t an acceptable consequence you would stop watching porn.
You do understand that abusers can lie about what they’re doing, right? And that victims of abuse will often not come out in fear of retaliation from the abuser. You’re saying that the viewer should be required to prove that something doesn’t exist. It’s an impossible task.
You can do the best you can, check actresses pages check out studios research film crew. You can do a lot to try and determine whether the content you’re consuming was consensually filmed or not.
Can you ever be 100% sure? No, you can’t. And that’s why I do not watch it and never will.
Research on stuff you consume is a good habit, but most people don’t make time to check every source, even on things they use daily like a phone (or people would all buy Fairphones).
I think most sane people do not like to masturbate to something when they believe it actually causes harm. That’s why this is a news item, porn for most people is not about abuse and they are not fine with it (although I agree much content is often extremely aggressive). As for many it’s supposed to be a window of letting sexual frustration out; porn is about sex, which is one of the core drive factors of most existing species and one of the main reasons we exist today. Not everyone feels as strongly about it, but one cannot deny the human urges surrounding it.
For many people porn in general can fulfill a need, and therefore it’s quite easy for them to overlook the dark side of porn out of habit, just like eating animals is culturally acceptable to most, as well as buying the latest phone every two years while child labour is likely involved. People get their dopamine hit by different things and may look away from questionable parts. I’d figure that includes us, perhaps on different subjects.
I think we should all critically look at our own behaviour. We’re all bad and hypocrites in my perspective, but not on purpose per se. Most discussion in this topic I see is about some people trying to admit they’re confused and defending their past behaviour without wanting to give it all up and others that claim to have the moral highground while ignoring any nuance.
I think it’s good to look at ourselves and our own shortcomings. Everyone has different flaws, some might be equally morally questionable. Let’s acknowledge that and share our views. And together make sure that we strongly form a bond on that practices like in this news post will not happen again. This is a lot easier if we can understand the consumers of porn related services and work together to weed out the dark while acknowledging existing needs.
I still take great issue with the equivalence of deriving sexual pleasure from watching women being sexually abused, inadvertently or not, and me using a cell phone. As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread, my cell phone I own to access society. It serves a purpose beyond child labor. I’m not deriving sexual pleasure from watching child labor or unethical companies operating. In the case of watching porn of a woman being raped and masturbating to it, the rape is the commodity you’re consuming. The rape is the thing that you’re getting off to.
So, if we are openly aware that these videos exist and that you will come across them while masturbating to porn - then you have accepted that you will masturbate to a woman being raped. It is acceptable that that happens so that you can continue to masturbate to porn. You do not have to watch porn. Porn has only existed for the last 130 years based on our present knowledge of early works. That means that only for the last 130 years have sex acts being performed on women been recorded, and thusly only for the last 130 years has deriving pleasure from a woman being raped in a video format been a possibility. The entirety of human history this has not existed and we have all gotten off just fine, many people continue to get off just fine today no porn involved. Watching porn is a choice, it is a want and not a need. You have to accept that you will get off to sexual abuse at some point in order to continue to consume it. That shouldn’t be acceptable to anyone who has any actual empathy for women. In essence the least that someone could say is they will go as far out of their way as possible to only consume content they are absolutely certain is not depicting sexual abuse. If you’re not researching the actors you watch, the studio that produced it, the film crew that worked on it, then you’re openly accepting that youre going to get off to porn depicting sexual abuse and that it’s okay for that to happen and not worth going to every length possible to ensure it doesn’t.
It’s just telling again and again that men see “inadvertently masturbating to a woman being raped” as equivalent in some manner to “using a cell phone who’s resources were gathered unethically”. And somehow the nuance that owning a cell phone for other reasons is not the same as consuming rape porn. It isn’t, no matter how hard you try to frame it that way it isn’t and never will be. Just to reiterate, so that we hopefully don’t go in circles on the same point again, in the example of the cell phone the child labor or unethical business practices is not what I am consuming. In the example of accidentally getting off to a woman being raped the rape itself is what is being consumed, a direct video of that sexual abuse is the commodity that is being consumed.
I understand that you are frustrated, but in my opinion you are using a lot of black/white arguments. Let’s try to work this out, as I think definition differences and perspective are confusing things.
A. I’m not saying porn is the only way out, I’m saying it’s an outlet of existing (sexual) urges. Watching porn is as necessary as eating meat, both are not needed to survive and have not been accessible to people in the past per se. It’s an urge you can act on, purely for pleasure. Just like toying with one’s new iPhone can be considered a pleasure, while we might want to look for a more sustainable alternative that is not build on workforce abuse of all ages. But indeed, not all phones are bad, there is nuance and most people will need one. Just like not all food is bad, but we’ve got some pretty nasty stuff done to our fellow-earthlings. But there is nuance.
B. Porn can be consensual stimulating graphic imagery, for example in the form of a couple sharing part of their love life, a photoshoot of a nude model, but it can also be found in ancient paintings and has been common in books as old as time itself as texts (figuratively speaking). This distinction is important in the argument.
Perhaps we need to define the term porn better; as I understand it you mean the non-consensual form of real people in sexual situations in media.
And if I understand you correctly, you say that if you look at any of the forms of porn I’ve described above than you are masturbating to rape. But that’s strong generalizing in my opinion.
What I do get though, is the part when what you find online is questionable and you can’t see the difference. I’d say let’s rule out all the porn that does not have an approval certificate of actual consent by an official authority.
C. 130 years ago iPhones did not exist either, the context made them useful, but I think I get what you mean with that argument. Just to keep things in balance, perhaps the amount of sexual abuse was higher as well then, as there was less of an outlet for sexual frustration / less regulation. I don’t think we can get factual records on that, as sex has always been a bit of a taboo subject. What I’m sure of though is that sexual imagery has been around for far longer than 130 years.
D. In my opinion the Fairphone alternative (fairtrade, relatively expensive, sustainable) to an iPhone now (forced -child- labor, relatively cheap, marketed as 2 year object) is on an abstract level like the nuance discussion between consensual porn and nonconsensual. Most people do not know the difference even after some research. It is both extremely hurtful for real people, downright sadistic even, hurtful for the environment and just surfing in a wave of lustful dopamine. In both cases most people do not care enough to pay a bit extra, even do research.
In both cases people might throw the subjects under the bus because they do not see the relevance, while they’re both supported by extreme human suffering in the bad scenario. They do not want to see similarities between suffering if it does not support their story.
And I say yes, there is pain, and it is gutwrechingly terrible. So are humans, I despise all of us for existing. But the truth is just that we are bad at looking at our own flaws and good at pointing out others. We still want things to change? We must work together and that starts with nuance.
I acknowledge the downsides of porn, I do not ask of you to acknowledge an upside, only hope to instill a bit of nuance in the definitions we’re talking about.
I think that’s where most of this triggers emotions and confusion.
Again, I’m not cumming over the child labor that made my phone. Whenever you inadvertently jerk off to porn that depicts sexual abuse you are deriving sexual pleasure from watching someone be raped. There is no comparison here that is adequate. That is what you are doing. Besides literally in person jacking off to a woman being raped in front of you, there is no adequate comparison.
Sexual imagery has been around forever and I am not attacking sexual imagery. I am saying that jacking off to a drawing has a 0 percent chance of being a video recording of an actual real woman being raped.
No matter how you slice it you have to be okay with the chance that you’re doing that to watch porn. On some level every person who watches it has accepted that, or else they don’t even think about whether or not what they’re watching is consensual. I couldn’t tell you which is worse here.
Its not some hypothetical either if you’ve consumed porn regularly for years then you’ve pretty well definitely done that at some point. The mere thought that I could be witnessing that kills any and all desire to engage with it, and I would say it should for anyone. The fact that it doesn’t means, as I said, a form of acceptance that you may be doing that. Which isn’t okay like its not okay to do that.
There may be slight evidence that porn mitigates some kinds of violent offenses, but not nearly as much as having an egalitarian society that instills the concept of consent from birth in all people would.
It’s a legitimate criticism. Evil exists in every aspect of life. Direct your vitriol to the people who are actually responsible - those doing the raping, the nonconsensual filming, the other vile things that happen in the industry, and not the people who just consume. It’s for all intents and purposes impossible to guarantee as the consumer that ANYTHING you’re consuming is ethical. From sweatshops making your phone and clothes to scumbags doing vile shit to make porn.
No one reasonable is comfortable with any of that. But I’m not going to bash the dude who’s just consuming rather than the top dogs making. It’s the same principle as climate control. It does NOTHING to target the consumer, they’re responsible for a negligible amount of the problem, and yet so many people are quick to point to “you didn’t do your part! You threw away instead of recycling! You drove a gas car!” Aim where it matters.
I will bash the dude knowingly consuming porn when he is aware that a non zero amount of is literally rape. I will also bash the rapists making it. Consuming porn isn’t like wearing clothes, or eating food. You do not need to consume unethical pornography.
Ok and I’ll bash you for using an electronic device and wearing clothes. Both of them are as coercive and damaging to people as consuming unethical pornography.
Or we can get to an actual middle ground of understanding, realize that the world we live in is the way that it is, and do some actual work changing it, from both sides. I dunno, one of those seems way more productive.
You know, as a rape survivor myself, I have to say that no wearing clothes and using a cell phone to access society are not comparable to masturbating knowingly to women being raped. Rape is not equatable with unethically using a cell phone that I require to exist in society at all. Again, you can just not masturabate to unethical porn. You do not have to do that. I go every day without doing that. You’re defending knowingly masturbating to rape. To a woman being raped. No, no, no I’m sorry if you’re not willing to stop doing that then there is no possible middle ground that exists here.
Whoa what? Who said it was knowing? I’m pretty sure every comment I’ve read in this thread has been “oh God, I didn’t know that studio did this shit, I feel disgusted!”
I’m legitimately sorry you’ve been raped. You also have to look around that lens and see the actual truth of the situation, not take it out on the people who are very much with you on this thing.
Okay, so now you know that a non zero amount of porn you consume is made by sexually abusing women. Are you going to certify that anything else you consume is safely and ethically produced in a non-coercive manner by participants who are consenting and capable of withdrawing that consent? Are you going to make sure you only consume ethical porn? Are the rest of the people in this thread? Are they going to continue to consume pornography the same way they have been, with little regard for how its made and by whom and the circumstances of the actors being filmed?
If your answer is “yes I am going to take steps to ensure the only porn I consume is ethical”, then good. I hope you’re able to understand why the very existence and tolerance of this industry and this content is absolutely horrifying to me.
What are you talking about? My father doesn’t have a phone. Does that mean he doesn’t exist?
Your argument is only based on emotions. What if I told you that I had relatives who died working in the mines for the minerals in your smartphone? What if I told you the money you paid for nigh every product in your life was used to keep people from my country in shit? That you (specifically you) helped pay a company to fuck up the political system of my country?
Well, I guess it’s bashing time now, because I have the moral highground, right? I mean, yes, you were raped, but my relatives were killed; forced to work in inhumane conditions and die before you even could leave highschool. I had to flee a war with my parents where more of my relatives were killed all because of the consumerism of you, your parents, your friends, relatives, and your country. I should hate everything about you. There’s no middleground here - you and people like you are evil.
My anger is greater than yours, so my argument is more valid. Only somebody who had it worse than me can have an opinion that is “more valid”. Only they can be the arbiter of morality since their suffering is greater than mine.
Hopefully you get the point. Obviously I don’t hate you and do I understand why you’re triggered, but that doesn’t mean you’re right.
I’d say “I’m sorry your relatives died. I only got this phone so I could get a job and an apartment, both of which I require a cell phone to acquire in the modern world. All modern life is being tied directly to cellular devices and I have been coerced by capitalism and the government into getting one. Not having one means a significant portion of modern society is inaccessible to me. I wouldn’t have one if it was reasonably avoidable.”
Whats your comparable justification for masturbating to a woman being sexually abused?
This is what we mean when we say we live in a society that justifies sexual abuse against women. Its seen as an unfortunate side effect of men having sexuality. Youre acting like watching a woman being raped and whipping out your cock to get off to it is a reasonable thing to do, and like the viewer is totally casually disconnected from what they’re viewing. Have you ever wondered why so many women would be raped in the porn industry? Tell me, why is the porn industry full of sexual coercion and rape? Is this natural in some way? Is it natural for men to want to witness rape, to be fine witnessing rape, or to see accidentally getting off to rape as equivalent to “eating an unethically sourced chocolate” or “using a cell phone that was made of unethically sourced parts”?
The difference is I have a cell phone for a reason other than abusing workers. I eat chocolate because it tastes good, not because witnessing workers being abused brings me pleasure. Does it bring you pleasure to witness women being raped? Is masturbating to women being sexually abused an acceptable consequence of consuming pornography to you?
Since we’re discussing reasonable mitigation factors, when was the last time you got a new cellphone? And the time before that? Were they absolutely unable to be used? Sure,you practically need both to be a member of society,but they don’t have to be fancy or new. How about your clothes? Did you wear them til they’re threadbare, barely holding together? Coffee? Chocolate? You ever consume those from non-fair-trade sources?
It’s absolutely ridiculous to place the blame for all of those things on the consumer. You do your best, and you make Boise about the shit the manufacturers and producers do, in whatever way you can bear. I don’t care about what’s worse between rape and slavery, that’s a fuckin dumb discussion they both suck. Do your best to limit your impact, but know that your impact alone, and mine, and every other person in this threads, is MINIMAL. Form allies, and together we can deal with the actual problems.
Masturbating to a woman being sexually abused is not comparable with eating something unethically sourced. I’m not gaining gratification from witnessing the workers being abused. When you masturbate to a woman being sexually abused you are directly getting sexual gratification from watching someone being sexual abused. I don’t know what to tell you if you cannot understand how that is different from eating an unethically sourced food.
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I just can’t get behind (heh) OF personally. evey video I’ve ever seen has just looked like a tiktok/insta “influencer” having sex and it is just a massive turnoff for me. the lighting is just so off all the time. looks more produced than actual produced stuff. just doesn’t do it for me
Unfortunately, we can’t know for sure that OF models aren’t subject to similar abuse either, but its likely a safer bet.
I have never watched porn. Some would say that makes me inhuman but it can be done. Those of us with experience in the sex industry would never say ‘sex positive’.
Save your fucking houlier than thou attitude for yourself.
I don’t understand, are you saying that not being okay with watching porn of a woman being raped is somehow a pretentious position? What are you on?
Your comprehension is 0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Note they’re not attacking your argument at all, merely calling out the fact that you’re being a pretentious twat. Completely valid, both can be true. No tu quoque. Also it’s quite sophomoric to call out logical fallacies as a gotcha in an argument.
You don’t actually have a “holier than thou” sentence in your comment, but
Sure does come close. I think this is the reason why there are such negative reactions to your top level comment.
Meh. It’s cognitive dissonance and vanity. We’re all narcisstic to a certain degree.
We all lie to ourselves that we’re good people doing our best. Tell someone they’re not, point out the specific ways that they’re horrible (because they’re human), and they’re forced to reconcile these two contradictory pieces of information. Invariably people act emotionally and lash out.
You’ll get similar reactions if you criticise people for eating meat, for their role in pollution, buying crap rather than donating to a charity that saves lives, ignoring child labour, etc.
I think we all need to lie to ourselves at least some of the time, or we’d kill ourselves. Lie to yourself too much, and you become president.
Joking aside, we could all do with being a bit more honest with ourselves, so that we can become better people. If you’re never honest, you can’t grow as a person.
What if I told you you can gently lead people to conclusions rather than trying to bash them over the skull with them? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you want to do any good with your words, a more gentle approach will get you further.