football fanatics being a pestilence as always
I’m so sorry and ashamed of those Swedes. Tallin is such a beautiful city. I hope the Estonian police can gather enough data and share it with Swedish police to identify and prosecute those idiots.
Make the clubs pay for this kind of thing and watch the problem disappear in record time.
There was a a daycare that was annoyed by parents that were always late to pick up their kids. This was a problem because it meant the staff would have to work late. So they decided to charge a fine when parents showed up late. Problem solved, right?
Parents were tardy more often after the fine were put in place.
The reason was that people who felt bad about their poor behavior no longer felt bad when they were compensating someone for it.
The Swedish fans pay for tickets which support the team. The ticket prices would go up when they behave this way. But we shouldn’t assume that it would be a deterrent. They might think that because they pay higher ticket prices, they now have permission to behave poorly.
Fair point, but I think it could be managed with the right model. It does not have to be a flat “replace the proven material damages” fine. There could be fixed (large) fines for any kind of significant misbehavior on top the the material damages, multiplication factors can be applied to material damages and adjusted until an effect kicks in, fines can be increased with repeat offenses, …
At some point clubs will just go bankrupt if they don’t take action against this.
Alternatively, instead of fines give them “yellow cards” or “red cards” depending on severity and ban them from the next game(s) accordingly, counted as an automatic loss in the league or tournament. Clubs will care about that a lot, same as most parents who might not care about paying a fine will care a lot about losing their daycare spot, if only for a short time.
I’m sure they would vandalise with the rival clubs brands then.
All these Swedes apologizing and me as an american watching this like, “so that’s what it looks like from the outside to apologize for your idiot countrymen.”
I have never understood what the point of going crazy after a sports event.
If you let sports become an emotional experience, I have problems with you already, but allowing it to get you worked up into enough of a frenzy to just go out and break stuff just makes no sense at all.
If the outcome of a game affects you even one iota more than “oh well” or “yay”, then I already know you’re of caveman-level intelligence. Yes, I’m judging raucous sports fans, and I’m tired of pretending not to. Nothing should ever get you that worked up at all. Except maybe a ton of coke. Even life or death situations should be more chill than that.
I won’t even get that crazy when Trump dies, so sports fans have no reason to ever get like that. I don’t care about their ages or maturity either. Getting that worked up at all, ever, in any context is just proof of lack of self control.
And people act like it’s just normal. I see it mentioned after American football games too (usually I hear about it in reference to Philadelphia but I’m sure it’s talked about elsewhere too).
These people need to be force sedated during the game to prevent this from happening.
95% of people overlook the involvement of alcohol. I know you urinpeans love your booze, but you need to recognize that its a problem. I went out to a 4/20 event one year in the far off land of San Francisco, and everything was great until about 5pm when the liquor came out. Once morons started doing shots off park benches, the fights started, and the property destruction started. An otherwise peaceful and heavily medicated gathering turned into a riot with just a handful of handles.
Right, but other than sports, where else do huge masses of alkies all happen to be in the same spot?
People act like they can’t go anywhere or do anything without alcohol being available to overdose on. Sports? Alcohol. Restaurant? Alcohol. Fancy movie theater? Alcohol. Dinner party? Depends on the specific people involved, but fairly often, alcohol. Bowling alley? Alcohol.
Pretty much every social gathering that doesn’t specifically include kids has alcohol around. Even if we could get everybody to upgrade to (the entirely superior in literally every single possible way-and it’s not even close) cannabis, I wouldn’t recommend it being literally everywhere.
In big crowds it really shouldn’t be available at all. No context makes that a good idea.
Not sure why you’re shitting on Europeans, either.
As a native American, its pretty clear exactly why everyone should hate on Europeans when it comes to alcohol.
I mean, I have no idea personally. Other than similar events to this. But I’m not sure what alcohol specifically has to do with native American oppression.
I just hate the fact that alcohol is popular at all. I’ve always maintained that the current legal status of weed and alcohol should be swapped.
Other than when it was unknown how to get clean water and using alcohol to make it more safe, I don’t think alcohol should be consumed at all.
Not one drinker can give a good reason they can’t just relax with a high instead of getting plastered. At least not outside of “but that’s what I’m used to and I can’t rise above being a creature of habit and improve anything about my life”.
If humans just collectively forgot alcohol can be consumed, literally zero negative effects would happen. Combine with learning about cannabis consumption, and everything affected is neutral at the absolute worst in terms of comparison.
I wanna live in a world where we forgot drunk driving and drink rages were common events. I can go on a whole tangent rant about that tho.
I suspect they are not actually in a state of extreme emotional turmoil when these things happen, but they rather just enjoy destruction for its own sake and don’t care about the consequences for others. The sports event is just an excuse.
Similar things unfortunately exist in other contexts, too. Recently I heard of similar behavior in the camping area of large music festivals being an increasing problem.
The point is to give people a more safe outlet for their tribalistic impulses. That’s why this propaganda with Trump is working so well, they’re exploiting that instinct. I still feel that when all those right wingers decided to boycott the NFL, that’s when we lost them to the ultra right for good.
I tune out the moment people start talking about sportsball. I think a lot of the destructive side of things comes from a mob effect. You get a lot of inebriated people together, all high on their excitement, and it compounds. It’s not justified, but one potential reason.
People just never grow out of kindergarten. I still say nothing should excite anyone that much, at all, ever.
And alcohol rules being as loose as they are is total mayhem. Public alcohol should never have gotten this lenient. Staying prohibition didn’t exactly work out, but public events should be like one drink maximum. Maybe two. I dunno how to stop people, exactly, but bring dishes in public shouldn’t be possible.
I don’t think we should live with a limited set of emotions, just that we should control whatever we feel. I see nothing wrong with people being excited and overjoyed at something. Even if I find that something stupid and not worth my attention. It was worth theirs and they are excited about it.
My issues come at the destruction. Alcohol is a difficult topic. Prohibition of any substance just makes access more dangerous and less safe. There should probably be lower limits for public events though.
Feeling then and doing any kind of action are different. Nothing should get you that worked up, in my opinion. Emotionally and such, sure. But the “physically acting out” part not so much. For a sports or entertainment event I mean. If someone like does your kid, sure that should give you almost carte blanche to react. It’s not like you just magically teleport somewhere and wake up with a heavy dwindle object in your hand and fragile stuff out everywhere. There is premeditation of some sort happening in between. Hooting and hollering is acceptable, but if you go anywhere while drunk, you either need a responsible drunk sitter or a straightjacket with leg straps.
Drunk people are fucking idiots and shouldn’t be allowed even a quarter of the freedoms they currently have. No driving, no weapons, and no public, for starters. And by driving I mean one single DUI means lots of license for several years AT LEAST. I’d argue for permanent forfeiture, but that’s the absolute most lenient I would settle for. Given how dangerous they are behind a wheel, we aren’t even slapping them on the wrist, we’re just saying “no no no, little one”. The idea of a single tiny mistake should strike absolute mortal terror upon them as far as that goes. Not being able to get around (especially with our public transport system) is a devastating blow, and everyone should be one sip away from having to make major life rearrangements.
If they actually hit anyone or damage something, it skyrockets immediately and VERY steeply. I have no room for leniency or mercy. Even the legal limit is too high. Basically drinking and not being at home should make people nervous af.
I hear what you are saying and understand it. I want to agree with it to. The only thing for me with punishments that severe is that you catch accidentals at a way higher rate, and it becomes super easy to ruin someone’s life as a corrupt law officer or whatever other position.
I do think there is a probably a way to handle it that’s not life ruining but I don’t really want to delve into it that far atm. Besides that though, forfeiture of a license is just forfeiture of a license. That won’t stop people from driving without one. Especially if they need to get to a job to survive. I get that they make you angry, but extreme punishments like that tend to make life impossible or overly onerous to live and will just encourage and enable more risky behaviors. It comes into the cruel and unusual punishment territory.
And you can’t expect people to behave better if you make life extremely harder to live. This isn’t dark souls lol. You have to find a balanced approach. Some kind of correctional support should be in place with a strong but not life ending punishment. I do agree that most of the time our punishments now for issues stemming from drunkenness are too lenient. Especially in the cases where drunk drivers kill someone else. The slap on the wrist for DUI related deaths is a slap in the face to the victims and their families.
This is slightly pie in the sky situation as far as correct punishment and corruption goes. I don’t think"accidentally" being called drunk happens that often, and there should probably be a neutral third party for confirmation and such.
But I’d much rather fuck some idiot’s life up than continue to let risky drivers ruin safety for everyone else. Maybe allow them to get it back after completing some stringent class, and have even higher consequences if they do it again.
I dunno about how to fix the cop problem exactly, as we’ve got bigger corruption problems to deal with right now, and capitalism is a bigger threat than the drunkest driver. But once you intentionally (and yes, drunk actions count) cause mortal danger on the road, just give up being independent.
We don’t have infrastructure for it, but it should be on the to do list.
The short version is, consequences should be way too scary to even potentially run afoul of, at least in a world without tyrants and shit. Just don’t be a dangerous, negligent person. It’s really not too much to ask. If someone thinks it is, then they’re probably one of the negligent ones.
Just don’t be a dangerous, negligent person. It’s really not too much to ask. If someone thinks it is, then they’re probably one of the negligent ones.
I agree, and I think it’s a reasonable expectation. We might not entirely agree on how to get there but I think we both want the same thing of personal responsibility and reasonable behavior.
I don’t drink personally since I’ve seen it destroy lives and don’t trust myself to handle it. But I do know people that have just done dumb people things (both drinking related and not) and have corrected themselves and moved on to better things and behaviors. Some would’ve managed despite a harsh punishment, but some really wouldn’t have and would just have been a bigger problem in the end.
Because of those experiences, I see people resorting to substances as people in need of help and rehab more than ones that need dire punishments. But even with that said, punishments should match the danger one caused. I also definitely agree multi offenders should see escalating punishments though. More especially if they cause damage to more than themselves. It’s one thing to pass out on a sidewalk, another to wreck some signage, or piss on a wall. But it’s another thing entirely to drunkenly drive a car, and yet another to hurt or kill someone else because of your stupid choices.
It’s a difficult line to walk that gives adequate reeducation and mental support, and one that gives punishment on a deserving level and forces a suitable amount of restituionary actions. I agree though that we would need to see some major institutional changes for any of the solutions you and I have talked about to actually work.
European soccer hooligans are some of the worst people on the continent. Also majority of them are fascists, especially in eastern europe.
There’s a swiss football team near us that has fans that all wear khaki trousers and black shirts and they march instead of singing and waving scarves. Creepy as hell.
The nationalists in the US dress like that when they march, Nazi stuff.
Then they would feel right at home in Estonia
Average football people behaviour
average “stadium fan” behaviour
Absolute nonsense. By far the majority of football fans want nothing to do with the kind of pricks who do this sort of thing.
A good number are like this though. I used to live next to the stadium in Bulgaria and on game days we locked ourselves inside because it’s not safe with these roving mobs of hooligans. People get attacked, raped, they destroy everything in their path. It didn’t matter what country they were from, a good number are always like this.
Sure, some are like that. But not enough for it to be “average football fan behaviour” - it’s the exception, not the rule.
Imagine if migrants did it
It’s probably good Americans aren’t big football fans because they would celebrate like this but with guns too.
Philadelphia has to grease the light poles because Philly fans riot after basically every game, especially when they win.
Philly fans are the worst in the US. But even then, I don’t think they do this to a stadium bathroom
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Will you stop with this hypothetical shit, there are actual, real things to be critical about
Sounds like a problem that would solve itself
I just want to know how the hypothetical americans got their guns to europe.
Have you not seen what sheep americans are?
As a Swede I find this utterly embarrassing, and more than mildly infuriating. These are just criminals who use football as an excuse to hate on society.
They’re like this everywhere.
‘Ultras’ of any football club should be categorized as domestic terror groups or whatever. No matter the country, all they do is just smear graffiti, destroy public property, be drunk, starting fighta and being generally obnoxious POS. Football clubs should be liable for any damage those mfs do. And if that means that they need to raise ticket prices, good. Maybe this will discourage those mfs from going to the stadium.
Exactly.
People don’t join these groups because they like football.
They join because they want to get drunk, fight, and smash things up, and need an ‘excuse’ to do that, and similar people to do it with.
This shows the difference between casual football fans that went to see the world cup (they were awesome) and hardcore football fans that are closer to terrorist organizations.
These shitstains don’t just get drunk and destroy things and attack people, they plan to do so ahead of time, this is just part of the fun for them
Not only mildly infuriating
Which game?
sweden vs estonia. football
I hope the hosting stadium sends the bill, local authorities find the perpetrators and all business get insurance to pay out. Also i hope some researcher shows how much more expensive hosting a football match becomes because of these ‘supporters’, and that these costs are charged beforehand somehow.
Swede here (and from GBG, Gothenburg), and I can only say I’m sorry for the shit stains that did this. I have no interest in sports so I really had no idea this was something that could happen. Fuck every single person who took part in this, they don’t represent us as a country and city at all. I hope you hate them for them, not the whole country and city. And I, and I’m absolutely certain most of us, share the absolutely deserved hate towards the people who did this. I hope there’s some way to get names and make those public, I’d love to make them feel unwelcome in their own home. They should get jail time for vandalism.
Every day I wake up and feel the immense happiness of knowing that standing up for myself through the 10 years of elementary school and ignoring all of the football guys (90% of the guys at my tiny ass rural school) made me a better person.
Jokes aside, as a swede it is horrible knowing our own football fans behave this way. I sure hope authorities take responsibility and pay for this. These fans shouldnt be allowed to attend games.
Man, as someone who lives near Gothenburg. I am so so sorry for my neighbors. Football brings out the worst of some. I love Tallin so this makes me really really sad
