Hello everyone! For many years, I have been coding every once in a while and actually learned a lot. I especially liked C and C-Like languages and building useless stuff just for fun and for the sake of the intellectual challenge that came with it, but since when AI became decent enough, it just kinda ruined the passion for programming and computers as a whole. Thing is, I am in university now and need to go back to using C and program regularly, but now that AI does everything 20000 times better than I ever will I always either cede to temptation to use it (thus nullifying learning) or just get bored so quickly I just turn off the computer to do something different.

is there a way to revive the interest for programming and building projects? I am doing my best to stop using AI but heck I really am self-indulging. please help!

  • DutchJ@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    26
    ·
    7 days ago

    The main issue here is that googling becomes less and less attractive due to the emergence of copycat AI generated articles. Oftentimes, you have to wade through several identical copies of an original tutorial with ads crammed every other line before you find an actual resource.

    What I find to work reasonably well:

    • IF I use AI, I instruct it to never change files or run console command, but instead explain to me what to do and why
    • If not straightforward advice, I will check with official documentation pages and correct if needed

    This way, AI acts as glorified Google that can read your local context. For me it works quite well and I learn a lot. Nonetheless I find myself often wondering if I am doing the right thing.

    • wewbull@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      6 days ago

      I’d suggest actually disabling your write, edit, and bash tools if that’s what you want. If you just instruct it you’re risking it ignoring you.

  • kunaltyagi@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    10
    ·
    7 days ago

    Do stuff that you find interesting. I can buy good looking cups, but I still run the pottery wheel to make something by my own hands. It’s wonky, not perfect, but it’s made by me and I’m proud of that

  • TheUniverseandNetworks@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    6
    ·
    7 days ago

    A very long time ago I was taught that the lifecycle of a program is 20% design, 10% coding and 70% maintenance. The LLM can do some of the design & coding for you (which is the stuff you need to learn) but it’s going to (if it works) produce functional but impossible to maintain (for which read - change later for any reason) code. You’re training your brain to know how to do this stuff, and that’s important in and of itself.

  • OnLawn@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    6 days ago

    I’ve been thinking of all the places computers have democratized industries. Music is produced by someone on a laptop now more than a collective group of practicing and talented performers. 3d printing produces objects of great sophistication without really any craft skills at all. Chess is a bigger industry now than it was, and no one can beat a computer.

    But even then, sports have been something that anyone can participate in to various degrees, yet we still admire people who reach the pinnacle of performance.

    Before starting my own aquarium, a wise person said “Aquariums aren’t about keeping fish, they are a hobby for people who like to keep water, and the fish are just enjoying that”. Every craft, every sport, every performance has practice and maintenance that itself has to bring the enjoyment, the puzzle, and the promise.

    I see that for programming. It will be for someone who desires the craft of computing more than the outcome of the application, and they will achieve things that are simply beautiful. Because they love the craft.

    • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      3 days ago

      You are so poetic blud. Reading your comment made me start thinking about whether it’s AI to have killed my passion or the deadlines of university assignments. I am a very anxious person, maybe that plays a role

  • teddy2021@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    7 days ago

    I have found a few of my friends doing the same, and I have used AI on occasion. What I would suggest as someone who went through post secondary education without AI is to limit it, and see it as a tool. You can use it for more than code generation. I’ve used it to lay out plans in formats I don’t care to learn, but work well with CLI tools, help with debugging, and generate trivial code, like boilerplate or refactors. I admittedly am a bit of coding addict, so your mileage may vary, but i do think that it can help adjust the challenge you deal with, and, by that, give you the sense of achievement that will build a lasting joy from the process.

    • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      7 days ago

      im not tech, but i only used it a couple times out of curiosity of a quesiton and never again, after it gave mixed answers. but one of my bros did use it heavily to answer almost every of his questions, and even hallucinates answers on a obscure aspect. for how bad some forums or reddit it is, usually has the question or close to what im asking without looking AI.

  • matcha_addict@lemy.lol
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    7 days ago

    I always either cede to temptation to use it (thus nullifying learning) or just get bored so quickly I just turn off the computer

    This just sounds like a question of discipline, and AI is likely not the issue.

    I can relate. Whenever I wanted to learn programming, it felt like a chore to sit down and do it. This happens when you’re kinda compelled to learn it — such is the case in university.

    There is no magic trick. The answer is discipline and fighting your urges. Just tell yourself you’re gonna sit down for 90 minutes or however long, and you will work on X task without using AI (or whatever other guardrails you decide on). When you explicitly tell yourself that, and set up explicit boundaries and guard rails, you will do it. You just keep at it until it works.

    As I said earlier, this is how I felt even before AI. After a few months of persistence, it suddenly clicked, seemingly overnight. I became addicted. It became more difficult to stop doing programming. You just need to get in the flow long enough for programming to become natural and enjoyable to your brain.

  • NewDawnOwl@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    7 days ago

    have a vision and a project that you want to actually control the design of. Have a goal about being able to re-use and re-learn from your project when you look at the source of again, so that things are as well structured and as re-usable as possible. Make your goal to be a better programmer and to fully understand your code.

  • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    4
    ·
    7 days ago

    You can understand things in principle, implement them once and still use AI afterwards. That’s basically how uni will work from now (at best). I don’t mourn programming on its own tbh, because in the field you rarely do exiting stuff. And the exiting stuff you will likely still have to do, because it is the hard stuff

      • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        5 days ago

        Yeah, perhaps it’s not enough… But the difference between people who had one major coding assignment in uni and people who had none is already staggering

  • 87Six@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    6 days ago

    All AI did was move the bar up SLIGHTLY for new devs.

    You’re alright.

    Don’t know how to escape that though…

  • Dry_Monk@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    7 days ago

    Put it in coaching modę. Write the code yourself and only invoke it when you need a principal explained. AI doesn’t understand things, but you do. Use what it’s good at — writing text in statistically predictable ways to help you get better at what you’re good at.

  • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    87
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    7 days ago

    AI doesnt do everything 20000 times better than you ever will.

    Don’t tell yourself that.

    It’s better than you right now, but every mid-level tech worker will tell you it sucks. You have significantly higher capacity than it, you just have to learn to get there and that isn’t easy or quick.

    • wewbull@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      6 days ago

      I’m not sure it’s even faster. Damn thing ties itself in knots trying to do basic tasks.

      • atopi@piefed.blahaj.zone
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        7 days ago

        It is known that, with effort, a person can improve from the level they are in university

        It is not known how much AI can be improved

        • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          6 days ago

          It is not known how much AI can be improved

          I didn’t say it was. But at this point it would be a pretty wild prediction to think it’s not going to continue to rapidly improve.

                • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  4 days ago

                  A few reasons:

                  1. The evidence so far seems to be that AI capability scales with compute, and compute continues to advance. Including with crazy AI hardware like Cerebras and Taalas. There are still a ton of AI hardware startups that have yet to tape out.
                  2. There’s an enormous amount of research into algorithmic and infrastructure improvements, which also show no signs of slowing down.
                  3. Empirically, it has been getting better continuously for several years now. There appears to be no reason to suspect any blockers.

                  In other words: why not?

                  To steel man, the main reasons I would counter with are:

                  1. Moore’s law is pretty much dead… Except that we still have a ton of headroom with custom AI-focused chips. E.g. I know of at least two startups working on DRAM stacked on the compute chip instead of next to it, which gives dramatically higher memory bandwidth.
                  2. There are still a couple of architectural issues, e.g. context length is limited, AI can’t really remember/learn things on-line, hallucination is not solved. But… in practice those problems seem to not matter too much and also hallucinations seem less common the more capable the model is, so maybe it doesn’t need an architectural solution at all.
      • [object Object]@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        20
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        7 days ago

        Oh no, they have bettered themselves for nothing!

        You should watch TNG When the Bough Breaks, that’s the future we’re heading for if everyone decides to not learn hard things because the computer can do it

        • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          4 days ago

          Luckily that’s not my case, I still do very complex stuff. I just happened to lose the passion for coding

        • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          7 days ago

          You said

          It’s better than you right now, but every mid-level tech worker will tell you it sucks. You have significantly higher capacity than it, you just have to learn to get there and that isn’t easy or quick.

          I was just pointing out that this view completely depends on AI improving slower than he does. I would not put money on that.

            • FizzyOrange@programming.dev
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              5 days ago

              Of course it does. You said he has a higher capacity than AI and he just needs to learn to get there. Well that’s no help if by the time he does AI has advanced even further.

              learned helplessness

              No, I just accept reality. You can bury your head in the sand if you like.

              • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                4 days ago

                I’m sure AI must have a limit since AGI is still not there and apparently won’t be realized any time soon. I know I can become even better than AI but that is gonna take years and this is the kind of thing that requires for pleasure to be found in the pathway to the objective and not to the objective by itself

  • pcouy@lemmy.pierre-couy.fr
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    31
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    7 days ago

    Al does everything 20000 times better than I ever will

    This is where you’re wrong. Models you can afford are not that good, and you can actually learn to do a lot of stuff better than affordable LLMs ever will

    • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      4 days ago

      Earlier I replied to someone who made a similar comment to yours: I’m sure AI must have a limit since AGI is still not there and apparently won’t be realized any time soon. I know I can become even better than AI but that is gonna take years and this is the kind of thing that requires for pleasure to be found in the pathway to the objective and not to the objective by itself

  • hdsrob@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    19
    ·
    7 days ago

    Don’t use it.

    I know it seems like everyone is doing it, and it’s really good and cool, but that’s not reality, and you can certainly just write code the old fashioned way by thinking about what you want to do, and then typing some words on into an IDE or text editor.

  • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    18
    ·
    edit-2
    7 days ago

    Yeah, it’s a mental thing. Why draw something when there’s proper artists out there? Why learn to play the guitar when Mark Knopfler is out there? Why assemble a Jacuzzi in your backyard, when there’s a waterpark in the country? Why do your own barbecue when restaurants exist?

  • dgdft@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    20
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    7 days ago

    now that AI does everything 20000 times better than I ever will

    Now I’m no cognitive behavioral therapist, but, uh… this is what I think is catching you.

    I use AI plenty. I write most of my code with it. The garbage it spews out if you don’t hand-edit or get ultra-specific with design instructions is just atrocious, even if it looks sleek in the gestalt. You can give it small tasks and one-shots that it handles perfectly, sure, but it will rot a large codebase to the core if you start letting it make any real structural decisions.

    There’s simply no replacing architecture and focused thought, and writing code by hand isn’t going anywhere, even if the majority of the industry works with AI. I mentor junior engineers, I’ve seen the worst spaghetti they can make, and I can nonetheless confidently assure you that you’re better than “frontier” AI across multiple domains.

    • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      4 days ago

      Thank you bro, I just lack willpower to focus on studying the “old way” without AI. Do you think getting a good manual would be better?

      • dgdft@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        3 days ago

        Yeah, O’Reilly books or any other printed stuff that strikes your fancy are great options. DDIA and Learning the Bash Shell are personal faves.

        • super_user_do@feddit.itOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          3 days ago

          I will check it out. I have got a manual of C that really sucks and puts nothing useful on the table. Do you think I should get the official manual?

          • dgdft@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            3 days ago

            I’m not a C guy, but afaik the closest thing to a useful manual in print is the K&R book (written by Kernighan & Ritchie, authors of the language).

            I have a copy on my shelf and it’s… alright. It’s much more focused on basic language constructs than pragmatic usage and opinionated style. Good for what it is, but you should pick up something more recent and opinionated to go alongside it IMO, based on whatever C dialect you want to focus on (C89/C23).