I enjoyed https://asimov.fandom.com/wiki/Cal as a kid (beware of summary here covering the whole story to the end)

https://www.cgdev.org/blog/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-was-fastest-global-history-low-income-countries-were-left-behind

For previous vaccines for which we have data, the average period between microbe isolation and vaccine development was 48 years, with a record of about four years. The average time between vaccine development and 40 percent coverage was 42 years, with a record of 14 years for rotavirus. For COVID-19, the period between microbe isolation and vaccine development was less than a year, and between vaccine development and 40 percent coverage just 11 months.

So my personal standard “lets wait 2 decades” isn’t even that big, because average is 4 decades.

What corner was cut for the Covid-19 vaccine?

I don’t know that in detail and I didn’t research it. In my country this virus wasn’t such an overwhelming question of life and death as it was in US, apparently. There was no dilemma of “vax risk vs covid death”, it was a bit scary in the news at first, but almost invisible flu that not many really reported at all in media and I don’t personally know anyone who was even sure they had it or died from it. From this thread I get it that it was some kind of plague in US where literally everybody were dying left and right from this virus. In this context your collective defense of vaccine and peer pressure on ever questioning it makes some sense. In my case, it wasn’t even important enough to research vaccine situation, it’s just more reasonable to question the vaccine in absence of longer timeframes of data, because the virus itself isn’t even scary enough. I expect scary enough virus to be observable empirically and socially, not only in numbers given from above.

But if a group of doctors develop a vaccine that is then tested under supervision of thousands of their peer, with thousands more checking the data and claiming they look good, including most likely your own physician, suddenly it’s too much uncertainty and you need to become an expert in the field to trust them.

Only when it was developed in extremely short terms as emergency measure instead of in regular way. Is this “little nuance” really so unobvious it needs to be pointed out.

Anyway, your point of view at least makes sense. It’s easy to understand and the only thing I can do is to try to disprove it with numbers. It was enough just to write those few messages you did and it’s absolutely unnecessary to spam the thread with dozens if not a hundred of messages of personal attacks. Just a note to science enjoyers who can’t stop spamming the thread with insults.

Your numbers and the way you’re interpreting them look mysterious to me. As of 26 March 2021 there were ~3500 deaths associated with covid in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in US at the same point in time there were ~500000 deaths associated with covid.

If that’s where you’re claiming to be from, the chances you didn’t know someone who had it, and had it bad, are practically 0. So either you’re full of shit, or you aren’t human.

I’m not from there, I’m from country that’s less than 40%. Maybe I had it many times and maybe everyone I know had it many times, but in this case it was indistinguishable from a flu, maybe slightly weirded because I remember noticing some random lung crunching sounds that were otherwise benign. I can also say not a single doctor told me anything about it, and the only one I asked explicitly declined to comment anything on covid or vaccines.

There is no “long term”.

You don’t know what you don’t know. As an example, scientists have been studying biology for hundreds of years and only recently noticed some new weird viral like entities that were completely ignored before, and it’s unknown what their effect could be.

Western internet discourse lately is often insane like this. Even in /science/ most people would just immediately go into personal attacks instead of trying to destroy their opponent with numbers and references to quality research.

So, if I’m reading this correctly, even if you get vaccine:

• there’s 74% chance it won’t prevent COVID-19–associated emergency department/urgent care encounters
• there’s 65% chance it won’t prevent COVID-19–associated hospitalization
• there’s 59% chance it won’t prevent COVID-19–associated critical illness

Add to this the fact that it’s also not forever and you need to get revaxxed every so often, and the fact that covid was almost non-existant for at least 3 years, and I don’t see why even bother especially considering there’s already paxlovid, remdesivir, molnupiravir, etc.

https://data.who.int/dashboards/covid19/vaccines

^ There are many countries even in EU that have vax rates lower than 40%, sometimes even lower than 20% like Bosnia and Herzehovina.

I have never used facebook. Language is not personality, etc. This thread is now so full of those petty pathetic low intelligence personal attacks that I almost feel bad it highlights my position on this topic in better light than it probably needs to be.

I’m ETL (english third language, not even second), I pick words I read on the internet.

a small manageable risk

How is it manageable from individual pov? It’s more like a lottery. Maybe from big numbers pov it reduces mortality over those small time spans that were studied. There’s still no data for really long time spans, because not even 10 years have passed, and the worst case scenarios for person outside of high risk group seems to be worse than contracting virus.

!remindme 2 decades

Well, this isn’t really of statistical significance or anything, but I don’t personally know a single vaccinated person, and I don’t know anyone who died from covid or even had it really rough except perhaps some distant elderly relative who had bad pneumonia that might have been covid.

I didn’t say I know about problems that scientists don’t know about. I’m saying that I don’t want to take the risks because I consider it too early to be confident they’re safe for me. And there’s been way too many people that got weird blood clots, cancers and what not soon after taking the jab, that needs to be sorted out as well.

very common, dangerous, visible effects of covid

That’s just a flu to most people. Many are completely unsymptomatic.

effects of a vaccine

Heart attacks, blood clots, cancer, etc. Even some very famous people got those very soon after getting vaccinated.

Tinfoil analogy was irrelevant to original topic and my response is also irrelevant to original topic, and instead addresses foolishness of tinfoil meme in this day and age. Anyway, here you go:

• It’s not a question of some global conspiracy theory, scientists might themself not be aware of potential problems of these vaccines
• I don’t have access to DARPA’s nanoparticles and I don’t think those scientists would agree to let me take their EEG to try to decipher it, and there’s no point in doing that because it’s not even a question of legitimacy of individual research

Don’t assume everyone is american. In many other countries vaccines weren’t nearly as popular or mandated as in the US.

I’m indeed not very familiar with the idea of mass psychosis, but I’m quite used to the concept of hivemind:

I know concept isn’t new, they’re still not as widely used and this particular one was rushed and only have few years of data behind it. I’m only comfortable with something that has at least few decades and few generations of data behind.