Chinese military harassed Dutch warship enforcing UN sanctions on North Korea, Netherlands says | CNN
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A Dutch warship was harassed by Chinese military aircraft in the East China Sea on Friday, the Netherlands said, becoming the latest country to accuse Beijing’s forces of initiating potentially unsafe encounters in international waters.

A Dutch warship was harassed by Chinese military aircraft in the East China Sea on Friday, the Netherlands said, becoming the latest country to accuse Beijing’s forces of initiating potentially unsafe encounters in international waters.

In a statement Friday, the Dutch Defense Ministry said two Chinese fighter jets circled the frigate HNLMS Tromp several times, while its marine patrol helicopter was “approached” by two Chinese warplanes and a helicopter during a patrol.

“This created a potentially unsafe situation,” the statement said.

  • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.eeEnglish
    4·
    5 months ago

    It’s not explicitly defined in UNCLOS whether military activities should be permitted,

    Meaning there is no provision against it. Article 87 and 58 are both very broad in their protections to any state operating outside of territorial waters, there is no reason to assume the freedom of movement only applies to commercial vessels.

    so the debate on military activities within EEZ is still that, a debate.

    Only so much that international law in and of itself is still up for debate. If that’s your argument then the notion of international law is moot, and we will be doomed to regress fully back to might makes right foreign policy.

    I also feel as if you are attempting to narrow the argument into a specific corridor that suits the Chinese perspective. Yes there are countries that disagree with the broad protections offered by the current international law, but that’s not the only problem China has been rubbing against in regards to LOSC. They aren’t just attempting to govern military movements in their EEZ, they are attempting to expand it, and police the movement of both military and commercial traffic.

    I mean, they basically have a paramilitary fishing fleet that aggressively and violently violates other countries EEZ and territorial waters all the time.

    reference, it’s mostly the big ex-colonial maritime trading powers that are in support of this because it makes their trade easier, while those countries who exercise coastal rights and natural resource exploration rights are opposed.

    I think the point of LOSC is to deescalate points of contentions in spaces where we all have to operate. The rights of freedom of movement serves China just as much as it does the United States.

    • zephyreks@lemmy.mlEnglish
      14·
      5 months ago

      I think, I feel

      Ok, glad that we agree that we’re operating in a grey zone for international law. I respect your opinion.

      • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.eeEnglish
        3·
        5 months ago

        I think, I feel

        Yeah, it’s an opinion. Just like yours, I just don’t pretend to represent opinions as facts.

        operating in a grey zone for international law.

        Yeah, I mean what else can you expect from a system that was fabricated to substantiate the clean wehrmacht theory?

        But, if we’re sticking to the main topic. According to UNCLOS, travel in everything but territorial water has pretty broad protections.

        Whether international law is enforceable, logical, or ethical is a different debate that I wouldn’t want to throw my hat into.

        • zephyreks@lemmy.mlEnglish
          11·
          5 months ago

          According to UNCLOS, which the US isn’t signatory to? Some “international” ass law

          • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.eeEnglish
            1·
            5 months ago

            Right, but we are talking about China whom are signatories…

            Like I said, your issue seems to be raised at the concept of international law. Not the individual international agreement we have been speaking about.

            • zephyreks@lemmy.mlEnglish
              12·
              5 months ago

              Again, your claim is that if something isn’t explicitly specified, then it’s allowed. This is the difference between common law (popular in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, etc.) and civil law (used everywhere else, including most of Europe, South America, China, Russia, etc.)

              The question isn’t about the concept of international law, but whether international law should follow civil, common, customary principles (or even Sharia, Halakhah).

              • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.eeEnglish
                0·
                5 months ago

                your claim is that if something isn’t explicitly specified, then it’s allowed.

                No, my claim is that the law specifies all surface traffic is permitted. You are interpreting all traffic as excluding military traffic.

                This is the difference between common law (popular in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, etc.) and civil law (used everywhere else, including most of Europe, South America, China, Russia, etc.)

                The difference between civil law and common law is that common law is more based on jurisprudence and interpretation. Civil law is based on codified rules and doctrine. Meaning that in civil law, if you wanted to exclude military traffic, there would be a codified specification to support this interpretation.

                If we are evaluating unclos as civil law, then the fact that there isn’t a codified definition of what traffic can go where is even more damning to your argument…

                • zephyreks@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  12·
                  5 months ago

                  Except… That’s not what UNCLOS says.

                  Article 56.2

                  the coastal State shall have due regard to the rights and duties of other States and shall act in a manner compatible with the provisions of this Convention

                  Article 58

                  In the exclusive economic zone, all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

                  In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

                  Article 73

                  The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.

                  Let me bold the points in question.

                  Valid operations in the EEZ are: freedoms referred to in article 87 of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, however states shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part. The coastal state has the right to take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.

                  Military action (and, indeed, enforcing sanctions with surveillance using military ships is almost certainly military action) is not a directly permitted operation (it’s neither navigation nor overflight). It’s not an operation involved with “operating ships or aircraft”, and it’s not an operation explicitly allowed under UNCLOS by any means. UNCLOS does not specify that all surface traffic is permitted. Given that, UNCLOS specifies that states should defer to the coastal states rules and regulations. However, UNCLOS only directly gives the coastal state right to intervene in matters regarding living resources and does not explicitly allow intervention for non-resource interests.

                  • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.eeEnglish
                    1·
                    5 months ago

                    Military action (and, indeed, enforcing sanctions with surveillance using military ships is almost certainly military action) is not a directly permitted operation (it’s neither navigation nor overflight).

                    "article 90 defines the right to navigation as the right of every State “to sail ships flying its flag on the high seas”.

                    This is what I’m talking about… There is no distinguishing commercial navigation from military navigation. You are working off of a interpretation in what you have already claimed to be civil law.

                    If you actually read the articles the only time they specify a difference between commercials or military is in regards to aircraft.

                    It’s not an operation involved with “operating ships or aircraft”, and it’s not an operation explicitly allowed under UNCLOS by any means.

                    Lol, the navy doesn’t operate ships or aircraft?

                    UNCLOS does not specify that all surface traffic is permitted.

                    Yes it does…so long as it is flying a flag from any state.

                    Given that, UNCLOS specifies that states should defer to the coastal states rules and regulations.

                    So long as they do not conflict with rights protected by unclos.

                    However, UNCLOS only directly gives the coastal state right to intervene in matters regarding living resources and does not explicitly allow intervention for non-resource interests

                    Which is exactly what my original post explained…

                    Based on this and our other chat about the housing issues in China, I don’t think you are an idiot or anything. I just don’t think you are being academically honest, and have adopted an “ends justify the means” mentality common on Lemmy.

                    On the other post, you accused me of being completely wrong, but eventually admitted that they made a miscalculation in policy. Which under the mixed economy of China, is still a miscalculation of supply and demand.

                    I understand the reasons why people jump to defend any criticism of China on Lemmy, there is definitely people on here that take any opportunities to slander the nation. However, I haven’t made any criticisms that aren’t academically honest interpretations of how they execute their policy. I am also willing to defend the policy that I find admirable, such as I did with the other thread when the poster accused them of pricing people into homelessness.

                    Every nation deserves criticism of some sort, humans are exceptionally hard to govern. Pretending otherwise and attempting to dissuade any level of criticism of any nation does nothing but make you seem fanatical or disingenuous.

                    I don’t foresee this conversation really leading anywhere productive, as we have regressed to what I suspect is a purposely semantic dispute. Have a good one.