The first part is a harder structural issue. The second is an action everyone can take now and have a greater impact towards sustaining the planet. With the side benefits of better health and less animal suffering.
If veganism was welded as a solidarity against capitalism greater market structures would be forced to bend to working class demands.
Speak for yourself, my bike has become my primary means of transportation and I’m saving up for a solar array for my house. That change can and should happen now on every level.
Speaking of structural issues: There are massive, pervasive systems in place both practically and politically surrounding the meat industry. They even get huge tax funded subsidies from the government! Using your logic, should people just give up because of it? What’s the difference?
Veganism and vegetarianism are a hard sell to many people too, encouraging people to eat more plants instead of chastising them for eating meat would probably be more effective in convincing them.
Your comment even leaves out one of the most persuasive reasons the public, at large, are hard to sway to eat less, let alone no, animal products. Our bodies are wired to have strong responses to things like the smell of cooking meat. The way grease affects the tastes of food, etc. Our bodies have long recognized indicators of edible things, that are calorie dense, as that was critical to survival for most of human existence.
Yeah, all that extra protein was a big deal to our development. It has played a critical role in our species for nearly a million years, it won’t be dropped easily.
I am not promoting it. I am recognizing it as barrier to moving people away from using animals as food. If saying something is a reason that it is hard to convert the larger public, is the same as promoting it, I am not sure how you go about discussing the hurdles to achieving this goal. The old saying “it is an explanation, not an excuse”.
Well if I take it as a serious point, I dont see still how its useful to bring it up. We can’t change our natural impulses, only how we react to them. Following a vegan diet is no more challenging physically or mentally than managing a regular diet if you have the same goals.
Its akin to saying that a mans nature makes it difficult not to sexually assault women. While technically true, it has nothing to do with identifying problems and creating solutions.
I’m struggling to find any good reason to bring up natural instinct besides as an excuse.
Except that most people get a negative physical response from hurting other people, where as very few get one from eating meat, cheese, and eggs. You have reduced something very, very, complex to an absurd degree to make your argument, in order to say talking about it is just excusing behavior. So have fun with unrealistically simplified world. You won’t be accomplishing your goal living there, though.
What you are describing with meat is what happens not long after eating too much. In fact, other than lactose intolerance, it is rare to have issues that are not due to eating too much. Sure, there is a disease you can get from ticks, that can make you unable to process a protein, found in all animal products. Friend of mine has it. However, rare. Far more people have type one diabetes precluding them from eating a bunch of vegan friendly food.
That vast majority of people have bad reactions to hurting others though.
I am not arguing that it is good, better, etc because it is natural though. I am saying we , over ~750k years, evolved to have a strong natural reaction to indicators of things that are calorie dense, and maybe protein/nutrient dense. This makes it harder to persuade people to the better option of veganism. It isn’t the only factor, but it is definitely one.
Just because humanity has done something for a long time doesn’t mean we should continue doing it. If this isn’t an appeal to nature then look beyond it and and realize there’s plenty of other ways to to get nutrients besides supporting mass murder of other sentient beings.
If you can over come that then radicalize and realize a unified boycott of the animal agriculture industry would cripple the owning class.
Yeah no fucking shit. I was saying that this is a hurdle to getting the population at large to do something better. I didn’t say you couldn’t get nutrients without animals, I didn’t say it was better than a vegan diet, I said we are wired to have a strong response to smelling, and tasting it. We have a similar response to bread. It would also be hard to convince most people to not eat bread. I did not say we can’t, or shouldn’t, or what the fuck ever you imagined my comments said, move to a vegan dietary system.
Holy shit, putting words in my mouth. God damn, can’t even discuss things that make it difficult to persuade the general population to change, something we need to understand, if you really want to get to a point where no animals are used for food, with some vegans. Because clearly ethical concerns for animal welfare, and the sustainability of human life on earth, aren’t enough of an argument.
That’s cool I’m glad you have the means to get a house to put solar panels on. I’m also glad your able-bodied enough to get across town. Those are what’s called material conditions. People that have to use a car to get to work can easily take up a vegan diet and be more efficient at fighting climate change.
This second paragraph reads like you didn’t even read the second link.
I wondered how many flights Elon would have to do to undo your bike rides.
being vegan hasn’t decreased the size of the animal agriculture industry or even stopped it’s growth. for what reason do you think it would have any impact on the planet or animal suffering?
The first part is a harder structural issue. The second is an action everyone can take now and have a greater impact towards sustaining the planet. With the side benefits of better health and less animal suffering.
If veganism was welded as a solidarity against capitalism greater market structures would be forced to bend to working class demands.
Speak for yourself, my bike has become my primary means of transportation and I’m saving up for a solar array for my house. That change can and should happen now on every level.
Speaking of structural issues: There are massive, pervasive systems in place both practically and politically surrounding the meat industry. They even get huge tax funded subsidies from the government! Using your logic, should people just give up because of it? What’s the difference?
Veganism and vegetarianism are a hard sell to many people too, encouraging people to eat more plants instead of chastising them for eating meat would probably be more effective in convincing them.
Your comment even leaves out one of the most persuasive reasons the public, at large, are hard to sway to eat less, let alone no, animal products. Our bodies are wired to have strong responses to things like the smell of cooking meat. The way grease affects the tastes of food, etc. Our bodies have long recognized indicators of edible things, that are calorie dense, as that was critical to survival for most of human existence.
Yep, cooked meat was a game changer for our species but now it’s become a health and environmental hazard because we eat so much of it.
Yeah, all that extra protein was a big deal to our development. It has played a critical role in our species for nearly a million years, it won’t be dropped easily.
deleted by creator
I’m not sure theres reason to promote adhering to your base instincts. Do you also try to mount every woman you find attractive?
Surely you can comprehend the idea of choosing to abstain from something you have the urge to do?
I am not promoting it. I am recognizing it as barrier to moving people away from using animals as food. If saying something is a reason that it is hard to convert the larger public, is the same as promoting it, I am not sure how you go about discussing the hurdles to achieving this goal. The old saying “it is an explanation, not an excuse”.
Well if I take it as a serious point, I dont see still how its useful to bring it up. We can’t change our natural impulses, only how we react to them. Following a vegan diet is no more challenging physically or mentally than managing a regular diet if you have the same goals.
Its akin to saying that a mans nature makes it difficult not to sexually assault women. While technically true, it has nothing to do with identifying problems and creating solutions.
I’m struggling to find any good reason to bring up natural instinct besides as an excuse.
Except that most people get a negative physical response from hurting other people, where as very few get one from eating meat, cheese, and eggs. You have reduced something very, very, complex to an absurd degree to make your argument, in order to say talking about it is just excusing behavior. So have fun with unrealistically simplified world. You won’t be accomplishing your goal living there, though.
Quite a lot of people experience physical discomfort or pain from eating the things you listed.
A good portion of the world is lactose intolerant, justtpo point out an obvious one.
Meat can cause a “spike followed by a come down” effect somewhat similar to sugar in some people.
But what I think happens is that people dont make the connection between how they feel and their diet.
What you are describing with meat is what happens not long after eating too much. In fact, other than lactose intolerance, it is rare to have issues that are not due to eating too much. Sure, there is a disease you can get from ticks, that can make you unable to process a protein, found in all animal products. Friend of mine has it. However, rare. Far more people have type one diabetes precluding them from eating a bunch of vegan friendly food.
That vast majority of people have bad reactions to hurting others though.
You’re argument is found here.
I am not arguing that it is good, better, etc because it is natural though. I am saying we , over ~750k years, evolved to have a strong natural reaction to indicators of things that are calorie dense, and maybe protein/nutrient dense. This makes it harder to persuade people to the better option of veganism. It isn’t the only factor, but it is definitely one.
Just because humanity has done something for a long time doesn’t mean we should continue doing it. If this isn’t an appeal to nature then look beyond it and and realize there’s plenty of other ways to to get nutrients besides supporting mass murder of other sentient beings.
If you can over come that then radicalize and realize a unified boycott of the animal agriculture industry would cripple the owning class.
Yeah no fucking shit. I was saying that this is a hurdle to getting the population at large to do something better. I didn’t say you couldn’t get nutrients without animals, I didn’t say it was better than a vegan diet, I said we are wired to have a strong response to smelling, and tasting it. We have a similar response to bread. It would also be hard to convince most people to not eat bread. I did not say we can’t, or shouldn’t, or what the fuck ever you imagined my comments said, move to a vegan dietary system.
Holy shit, putting words in my mouth. God damn, can’t even discuss things that make it difficult to persuade the general population to change, something we need to understand, if you really want to get to a point where no animals are used for food, with some vegans. Because clearly ethical concerns for animal welfare, and the sustainability of human life on earth, aren’t enough of an argument.
That’s cool I’m glad you have the means to get a house to put solar panels on. I’m also glad your able-bodied enough to get across town. Those are what’s called material conditions. People that have to use a car to get to work can easily take up a vegan diet and be more efficient at fighting climate change.
This second paragraph reads like you didn’t even read the second link.
I wondered how many flights Elon would have to do to undo your bike rides.
Your defeatist attitude is presumptuous bullshit bud
Your ableist attitude is adorable dude.
Keep on making presumtions but I won’t be reading them.
11 tons of C02 emissions 3 hours ago from NY to Tennessee
For a round trip commute of 10 miles, or 16 km, commuting 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, this results in saving about 700 kg CO2e
You and me have more in common then either of us well ever have with Elon.
being vegan hasn’t decreased the size of the animal agriculture industry or even stopped it’s growth. for what reason do you think it would have any impact on the planet or animal suffering?
Absolute numbers vs percentages my friend. Populations increase, absolute numbers increase, but what happens with the percent of the whole?
the industry has ceaseless growth.
Growth itself can increase or decrease, you are aware of this right?
it’s still not less suffering or GHG/pollution, only more.