It doesn’t matter, these dumbasses aren’t interested in a realistic examination of Biden’s policies. They’re just salivating at the thought of another Trump presidency under the delusion that another four years of far-right rule will definitely make the proletariat realize that overthrowing the government is the only way forward, unlike the last four years of far-right rule.
Man, it’s not about liking or not liking Biden. It’s about understanding what realistic paths are ahead. Would it be great if we had someone other than Biden? Yes. Would any other US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis? No.
Just stop obsessing over that choice. Criticism of Biden isn’t a way to demotivate voter turnout, it’s a way of activating political engagement outside of electoral politics.
It’s a shit choice and everyone knows it - so why should we be beating each other over the head with it when there are better ways to engage with the issues? Going around the internet whipping leftists into line to support the least-fascist option is a waste of everyone’s time, and it has the side-effect of minimizing leftist stances. That there aren’t alternative candidates that would handle the Israeli occupation differently shouldn’t dissuade us from being loud about critiquing his handling of it.
Sure, you have fun with the idea that engaging in a circle-jerk about how Biden is literally a genocidaire definitely doesn’t affect the electoral realities on the ground, and that definitely numerous leftists on here aren’t already loudly declaring that now they’ll NEVER vote for GENOCIDE JOE. Obviously pretending that this isn’t a moderation of previous US support for Israel and that non-support of Israel is a non-starter due to over 70% of the voting population being in favor of further support to Israel definitely won’t affect turnout.
I don’t know if you’ll be wringing your hands comfortably in front of your television set in a second Trump presidency or if you’ll be in the camps with the rest of us, but I doubt you’ll have any self-reflection on this stance in either case.
I get that you’re frustrated, possibly fearful, of Biden’s low approval and the risk of a Trump presidency. There are plenty of ways for Biden to win more progressives over, he just has to decide that preventing a trump presidency is more important than maintaining the status quo.
The only person responsible for that possibility is him.
I get that you’re frustrated, possibly fearful, of Biden’s low approval and the risk of a Trump presidency. There are plenty of ways for Biden to win more progressives over, he just has to decide that preventing a trump presidency is more important than maintaining the status quo.
Every act of winning progressives over also has a cost of alienating non-progressives which, despite the repeated claims of some commentators, are not actually anywhere close to a majority of the Democratic Party, much less the country as a whole. The idea that all Biden has to do to win the election is become super-progressive ignores that the country itself is not super-fucking progressive. Would I love it if it was? Sure. But we work with reality how it is, not how we fucking wish it to be.
First poll I found says 65% rather than over 70%, but the overall point remains
That poll was conducted back in October. A hell of a lot has changed since then, hasn’t it?
Every act of winning progressives over also has a cost of alienating non-progressives which, despite the repeated claims of some commentators, are not actually anywhere close to a majority of the Democratic Party, much less the country as a whole. The idea that all Biden has to do to win the election is become super-progressive ignores that the country itself is not super-fucking progressive. Would I love it if it was? Sure. But we work with reality how it is, not how we fucking wish it to be.
It isn’t the responsibility of progressives to build a winning coalition for Biden, that’s his job. Whining about how progressives dislike him and may not vote for him isn’t going to change their minds, if anything it will entrench their view that the Democratic party stands against them.
The far-right and far-left resurgence hasn’t happened in a vacuum, it happened because the last 50 years of austerity has left the majority of American’s behind. If you’re looking to the last 50 years of politics as the basis to assert ‘progressive candidates can’t win’, then you’re ignoring the political landscape as it exists right now.
calling me delusional is a personal attack. it’s inappropriate in this community. if you have a rebuttal to I have to say you can articulate it in the context of the validity of ideas.
… because begging the question is a form of circular logic rather than an assertion that a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking?
Our realistic examination is Biden committing full on indiscriminate genocide of men women children and little babies.
Biden bombing hospitals that are now confirmed to have no Hamas bases underneath them. Biden bombing schools full of little girls and murdering more than two full classrooms of people at once last night.
Biden didn’t bomb shit and you talking like that shows how little you understand of the situation.
Blame him for continuing 70 years of US foreign policy, blame Israel for what they do with it. Disagree with the current situation and constructively advocate for something better.
Or… submit to Godwin’s law and show everyone how little you understand the world around you.
Genocide Joe has been a self proclaimed Zionist for at least 50 years.
Biden is the guy removing all weapons restrictions so the IDF can bomb hospitals.
Biden is the one lying about 40 beheaded babies and Hamas bases underneath hospitals.
Biden is directly responsible for this Genocide. Just like Netanyahu isn’t shooting the gun himself but only gives the command, is responsible for Genocide.
You cannot claim Genocide Joe was just following orders when he is the one making the orders.
He has fulfilled every definition of Nazism if you replace the word Jews with Arabs. Godwins law becomes inevitable.
Conservatives really think they’re clever with that one. Like I’m not a fan of the current policy whatsoever, but placing the blame for the situation in Gaza on Joe Biden is insane. These morons have to be trying to get trump reelected, which we both know means the atrocities in Gaza will only get worse.
No one denied the tragedy of the situation. I simply pointed out repeating a stupid nickname demonstrates an ignorance of 70 years of foreign policy that has stretched across administrations of both parties.
Now you’re calling me names like cultist. Are you implying republicans don’t support Israel and haven’t waged wars to remake the region Pax Americana?
It’s so sad that all you have is whataboutism isn’t it? And the worst part is that Genocide Joe isn’t even the lesser of evils anymore. He is now the worse evil.
Genocide Joe is the person able to stop this. Instead he removes all war crime restrictions on the weapons and protects israel with all his power. He is actively committing mass genocide.
A reminder that Genocide Joe has killed more than twice as many civilians than Putin in Ukraine already.
Not to mention the amount of children murdered by this barbaric Zio Nazi
Wheres the lie? He says theres no red line Israel could cross that they wouldnt have US support (He’s conding their slaughter), one of the 2 purposes for the Thanksgiving ceasefire was to replenish arms (providing weapons), and has authorized additional money (funding) for the apartheid terrorists to keep fighting
Saving Palestinians means getting rid of Hamas. Even the Egyptians understand this, which is why their attempt to negotiate peace had Hamas getting gone too.
Gazans deserve better, sadly many of them will die before they get better.
The problem is that you can’t really get rid of a terrorist organizational with violence unless you kill everyone in a group they draw from, violence will just radicalize more people. The only way to get rid of Hamas is with better conditions for the people of Palestine so they won’t radicalize.
You might not be able to kill all of them but history has shown us that you can certainly kill enough of them to allow for a multi decade long deradicalization program which is what it will take to rebuild the strip, decolonize Samaria (to an extent) and reeducate the people who are currently being taught Jews have horns and a whole lot of other bs.
Killing the leadership whose siphoning billions in aid money would also go a long way to improving the lives of the Palestinians. I’ve read Mossad is working on that, wishing them all the best.
Long game here means the Arab Nations who are currently not taking refugees will have to step up and help their brothers rebuild in a more modern fashion, UAE, Bahrain and Saudi should lead here IMO, with Saudi being tempered by the other two but kept feeling like they’re part of the solution.
Yet what is happening now will only cause more radicalisation or the death of most Palestinians. After the brutality Israel has shown those 2 are the only possible outcomes.
Also the leadership of Hamas isn’t in Gaza so not much chance of them dieing.
The Hamas leaders not in Gaza don’t need to die, they need to be severed from the strip which is done by taking out the top leadership which Israel has been doing well so far. They even nabbed an IRGC leader the other day. Those people’s day’s are numbered and they know it.
It’s happening, it’s not going to happen quickly though. Didn’t happen quickly after WW2 either. Long game.
Well Hamas has made it very clear they don’t consider the lives of Palestinians to be their responsibility so sadly you might be right. They’ll sacrifice every one there before giving up the power they’re hanging on to. Seeing people raid aid trucks makes me hopeful they’re starting to turn on Hamas but I’m also seeing videos of Hamas shooting people taking aid supplies so hopefully they’ll run out of bullets before they run out of people so the civilians can access some of that aid.
Could? Yes. Would? Realistically, no, not even Bernie. We would have to all but strangle Israel to stop Bibi’s government from achieving the goal of the Israeli far-right since the foundation of Israel.
A non-starter in US politics. Support for Israel is too widespread amongst voters still. Even Bernie, who is at the left fringe of US politics, has only suggested attaching strings to the new multi-billion aid package.
“It is hard to achieve change, therefore we shouldn’t even talk about it as a possibility”
And you’re the one calling others right wing trolls? AIPAC runs a strong lobbying game, and while there are sizable segments who are unflinchingly 100% pro-Israel, a growing section of the electorate is horrified to know that US bombs are dropped from US built aircraft, against a dramatically weaker force, by an army that is repeatedly callous in its treatment of Palestinian life. And the American taxpayer funds it, rules are bent or broken to deliver those weapons, all while dissent is silenced.
Hamas doesn’t have an air force or tanks, it barely runs mortar artillery - air power is massive overkill. And the IDF has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to knowingly kill 10, 40, 100+ civilians if they can get at mid level officer or two. I’m disgusted with their actions towards civilians, and disgusted at US leadership and diplomats providing repeated political cover at the UN to neuter any resolution to help.
So if the national truly is between one of them and your duty as a citizen is to vote to reduce the impact damage from a bad president, you are just not going to vote?
Shame on you, people like you are why Trump was able to obtain power in the first place. Your apathy is dooming this already fragile democracy. Don’t give me that third candidate shit, not when a dictatorship is looming.
people like you are why Trump was able to obtain power in the first place.
no, trump voters are the reason trump was able to gain power. also, the fact that we live in a liberal democracy helped. given the option i would abolish our liberal democracy.
How dumb can you be? You think the right gives a FUCK about consistency? It makes Joe look bad that’s all they need.
Furthermore, Biden has been instrumental in cease fires and the like but what is he supposed to do when Hamas continues to break agreements? Yes giving Israel arms without conditions is fucked up but Biden has been very vocal about what the IDF is doing is unacceptable and pleads for them to hold back and avoid the same mistakes we made post 9/11.
It’s an extremely complex political issue, you dress it up like Biden is waving a goddamn Bibi flag and cheering him on.
By painting such a complicated issue black and white you do yourself and your perspective a disservice. You have good points but you just shit on them because of how reductive you choose to be.
Anyone calling this situation a genocide is ignorant.
West Bank is arguably a slow moving Genocide. Gaza was left alone for the most part until militants / terrorists attacked from Gaza.
This here is just your standard military operation. Yeah, it’s bloody and deadly. That’s not what a genocide is. Even a massive bombing campaign (ex: Tokyo firebombs or Hiroshima) are not genocides.
A genocide is an attack on the people in an attempt to make a culture extinct. Trail of Tears, Holocaust, etc. Etc. Are genocides. Intent matters, meaning matters.
Ie: Death to Israel is a literal genocidal chant. No one is calling for death to Palestine. This entire situation is so backwards is laughable.
Then why is Israel saying they intend to keep Gaza?
What else do you call cutting off people’s power, food, and water?
What else do you call telling people that an area is a safe zone and then bombing it anyway?
What do you call mass indiscriminate bombings?
But don’t worry, they will slow walk it enough that people like you can deny it until they are already gone and then people like you will tell us “Well, that’s all in the past, we should just forgive them now and move on.”
Israel controls food, water and electricity because Gaza is so poor they don’t have their own food, water or electricity. When a poor pseudo-State attacks literally the country providing them food / water and electricity, we call that ‘Gaza/Hamas being a dumbass’. Israel is under no circumstance should be forced into giving aid to the people who declared war upon them.
Maybe next time, before killing thousands of Israel’s, the leaders of Gaza can try I dunno, establishing a food/fuel/electricity deal with Egypt first?
Oh that’s right, Hamas doesn’t give a shit about the people so they’re actually stealing the food and fuel for themselves. Last time Israel was building pipes for water for Gaza, Hamas literally dug up the pipes and turned them into rockets. Israel literally cannot give these people any aid as long as Hamas is in power, because all aid becomes perverted into weapons by Hamas. So what the fuck is Israel supposed to do about that?
Mass indiscriminate bombings is mass indiscriminate bombings. Ya know, like Tokyo Firebombs or what we did in Vietnam. There’s nothing genocidal about that, it’s ‘just’ war.
Israel has genocidal tendencies in the West Bank so yes, we need to keep our eyes out. But what you see here isn’t genocide. It’s just war, the war that Hamas wanted and still wants to happen.
Genocide is when you try to kill off a culture or entire group of people. All these bombs won’t do that actually. Tokyo recovered for example and I promise you far more people and civilians died in the Tokyo Firebombing campaign.
Is Israel brutal? Yes. But this isn’t new news at all. But calling this a genocide is just counterproductive and only demonstrates your sides ignorance to world matters.
You can hide behind whatever words you want to try to make you feel better.
I may not be able to stop it, but to my dying day I will do my best to make sure never to support israel .
I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.
I will make sure that future generations see that israel is no longer deserving of our help, only our disdain for their killing of innocents.
For their mockery of innocent children dying in pain, pouring out water just to taunt people who are without, and calling them animals, and if the “nation” of israel falls, well I guess I’ll have a coke.
Because they don’t actually know what Genocide is, and they’re really bad at alliteration / word games.
In any case, it’s not Democrats who do this, but far left Gen Z tiktokers who are seemingly too young to understand foreign policy.
We support Israel because they are an ally on the world stage, and are one of Israel’s few allies. It is a bad idea to throw away our friendship to Israel especially after they were attacked.
But this friendship has costs. Israel always was rather militant. So if they get attacked, they disproportionally attack back. Furthermore, Hamas wants this to happen (Hamas still rejects ceasefires, calls to return hostages, and are raiding the aid packages to Palestinian civilians).
Not even to the technologically superior one who has given us a lot of military support and is key to our foreign policy goals in the Middle East?
Let’s say we abandon Israel. Who the fuck do we ally with in the Middle East? The anti-women Saudis who literally created the Wahhabi Islam that empowered Bin Laden? Iraq or Afghanistan? Iran hates us too.
Our alliance with Israel is out of larger scale necessity and long term friendship. For all of the faults of them (and yes, this war in Gaza is exceptionally brutal, though not genocidal), Israel has military power, military intelligence, and technology that we are borrowing.
Intel / Mobileye / etc.etc. are from Israel. Some of the most important technologies of our society are from Israel.
When both suck, but one is a good friend and has tech that we want, being friends with the powerful and technologically advanced is just a winning strategy.
One of those two parties has the power to end this conflict over night, and yet for decades they’ve done nothing but create more illegal settlements, and murder more Palestinian civilians.
One of those two parties has the power to end this conflict over night
Indeed. Egypt has proposed a peace plan and… Oh right. Hamas rejected it. Okay, well, if Hamas can’t even accept a peace plan crafted by a majority-Muslim country like Egypt what the hell do you expect Israel to do?
Now how about this, you start talking about which countries should try to step in and negotiate the peace deal between Hamas and Israel, and how this peace can actually be crafted. We just tried the Egyptian approach (with help from Qatar) and that’s floundering.
Or was there something in the Egyptian / Qatar peace plan that looked unfair for the Palestinians to you?
He’s not, and it’s not going to stick no matter how hard you try.
I know it’s a tall order for conservatives, but you guys really gotta start getting more creative with the names. Putting an adjective in front of a person’s first name is like bottom tier effort.
What do you expect him to do? Biden has already called for Netanyahu to resign. Do you want him to send the U.S. military in to fight the Israeli military in defense of people that want the United States to burn?
We don’t just sell weapons on the fly, there are specific agreements and contracts. It’s not just a simple “no more” situation.
The bottom line is Israel is a key part of the US defense machine, integration like that makes it extremely non-trivial to adjust in a reactionary manner.
But go off, tell us how easy the solution truly is
Trump has literally called for the eradication of Palestine. He implemented Muslim travel bans, he drone striked Iranian generals just cuz, I could go on and on.
His disaster of a ‘peace plan’ and recognition of the annexation of Jerusalem ratcheted tensions needlessly, and ending rapprochement with Iran and the nuclear deal has arguably led to Oct7 and jeopardized deeper Israeli-Saudi relations.
As a practically pragmatic question, countries die all the time, why is this one so important? It’s clear that even the Arab world hates Palestinians, so it’s not like anyone in the region actually cares about them. Seems like having Gaza, stomped under Israel’s foot but alive, is more beneficial for the anti Israel nations, than a free and happy Palestinian people.
Even Europe refuses to take any Palestinian refugees cause they don’t want them in their country, but they all pretend to care.
Anyways, so many countries died out in the last 150 years, it doesn’t seem like that rare of a thing.
I’m just sick of Americans trying to play the moral high ground, while they bathe in the blood of my people and enjoy the wealth they stole. In any case, your country is the one propping up Israel and this war, so get off your high horse
Funny how to Americans, only a decade or two is enough time to wash your hands of an atrocity you committed in your own backyard and tell the person you victimized, to essentially move on and forget it, in favor of whatever atrocity is happening on the other side of the planet.
It’s because we’re currently witnessing genocide. Usually even if the country goes away the people stay. When that’s not the case we usually call it genocide or ethnic cleansing, and these are not things we should just watch.
Also to be clear, Arab leaders don’t care about Palestinians. The people very much do care.
I’ve never met Arab leadership, but the Arab people I know from work and my building, despise Palestinians. (I live in a heavily Arab neighborhood). There’s definitely an old cultural grudge there, kinda like how Slavic countries all hate each other without really knowing why.
I think the rest of the world is helping in this genocide if that’s what’s happening, since like I said, the people who want out aren’t being taken by anyone. Refugees from all nations are taken willingly enough by most Western nations, but they don’t want anything to do with Palestinian refugees
??? Egyptians HATE, Palestinians. They’re not even welcome in the country, they’ve never been granted status despite loads movement over the years. Egypt didn’t even want Gaza when Israel gave it to them, they said no thanks to a free strip of coastline because they don’t want the headache that comes with the people who live there. Jordan… even worse.
This shit is wild, like how can people really not see how the policies of Netanyahu’s administration makes Jewish people around the world (including inside Israel proper) less safe?
Removed by mod
It doesn’t matter, these dumbasses aren’t interested in a realistic examination of Biden’s policies. They’re just salivating at the thought of another Trump presidency under the delusion that another four years of far-right rule will definitely make the proletariat realize that overthrowing the government is the only way forward, unlike the last four years of far-right rule.
You will have biden and you will like it
Only if you’re lucky. There’s only two realistic outcomes. And while neither is ideal. One is definitely worse.
Man, it’s not about liking or not liking Biden. It’s about understanding what realistic paths are ahead. Would it be great if we had someone other than Biden? Yes. Would any other US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis? No.
Just stop obsessing over that choice. Criticism of Biden isn’t a way to demotivate voter turnout, it’s a way of activating political engagement outside of electoral politics.
It’s a shit choice and everyone knows it - so why should we be beating each other over the head with it when there are better ways to engage with the issues? Going around the internet whipping leftists into line to support the least-fascist option is a waste of everyone’s time, and it has the side-effect of minimizing leftist stances. That there aren’t alternative candidates that would handle the Israeli occupation differently shouldn’t dissuade us from being loud about critiquing his handling of it.
Sure, you have fun with the idea that engaging in a circle-jerk about how Biden is literally a genocidaire definitely doesn’t affect the electoral realities on the ground, and that definitely numerous leftists on here aren’t already loudly declaring that now they’ll NEVER vote for GENOCIDE JOE. Obviously pretending that this isn’t a moderation of previous US support for Israel and that non-support of Israel is a non-starter due to over 70% of the voting population being in favor of further support to Israel definitely won’t affect turnout.
I don’t know if you’ll be wringing your hands comfortably in front of your television set in a second Trump presidency or if you’ll be in the camps with the rest of us, but I doubt you’ll have any self-reflection on this stance in either case.
Where are you getting this figure, exactly? Last I heard, only 33% of registered voters approve of Biden’s response to this issue.
I get that you’re frustrated, possibly fearful, of Biden’s low approval and the risk of a Trump presidency. There are plenty of ways for Biden to win more progressives over, he just has to decide that preventing a trump presidency is more important than maintaining the status quo.
The only person responsible for that possibility is him.
50% of the population disapproves of Biden’s response to any issue due to him being Biden. First poll I found says 65% rather than over 70%, but the overall point remains
Every act of winning progressives over also has a cost of alienating non-progressives which, despite the repeated claims of some commentators, are not actually anywhere close to a majority of the Democratic Party, much less the country as a whole. The idea that all Biden has to do to win the election is become super-progressive ignores that the country itself is not super-fucking progressive. Would I love it if it was? Sure. But we work with reality how it is, not how we fucking wish it to be.
That poll was conducted back in October. A hell of a lot has changed since then, hasn’t it?
It isn’t the responsibility of progressives to build a winning coalition for Biden, that’s his job. Whining about how progressives dislike him and may not vote for him isn’t going to change their minds, if anything it will entrench their view that the Democratic party stands against them.
The far-right and far-left resurgence hasn’t happened in a vacuum, it happened because the last 50 years of austerity has left the majority of American’s behind. If you’re looking to the last 50 years of politics as the basis to assert ‘progressive candidates can’t win’, then you’re ignoring the political landscape as it exists right now.
cornel west has been outspoken about having a different political stance on this.
Would any other realistic US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis?
Cornel west
Thinking that Cornel West is a serious candidate or has anything vaguely resembling a chance at the presidency is nothing short of delusional.
calling me delusional is a personal attack. it’s inappropriate in this community. if you have a rebuttal to I have to say you can articulate it in the context of the validity of ideas.
Tell me how this isn’t begging the question.
… because begging the question is a form of circular logic rather than an assertion that a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking?
… do you know what begging the question is?
“No other realistic candidate has a contrary view on this issue” -> “Their contrary views disqualify them as a realistic candidate”
Seems pretty circular to me.
Just relax and try to enjoy it
Lol
Our realistic examination is Biden committing full on indiscriminate genocide of men women children and little babies.
Biden bombing hospitals that are now confirmed to have no Hamas bases underneath them. Biden bombing schools full of little girls and murdering more than two full classrooms of people at once last night.
Maybe it’s time you step into reality already.
Biden didn’t bomb shit and you talking like that shows how little you understand of the situation.
Blame him for continuing 70 years of US foreign policy, blame Israel for what they do with it. Disagree with the current situation and constructively advocate for something better.
Or… submit to Godwin’s law and show everyone how little you understand the world around you.
I think they understand just fine and are just trying to muddy the waters.
Genocide Joe has been a self proclaimed Zionist for at least 50 years.
Biden is the guy removing all weapons restrictions so the IDF can bomb hospitals.
Biden is the one lying about 40 beheaded babies and Hamas bases underneath hospitals.
Biden is directly responsible for this Genocide. Just like Netanyahu isn’t shooting the gun himself but only gives the command, is responsible for Genocide.
You cannot claim Genocide Joe was just following orders when he is the one making the orders.
He has fulfilled every definition of Nazism if you replace the word Jews with Arabs. Godwins law becomes inevitable.
… is “genocide joe” in the room with you right now?
Conservatives really think they’re clever with that one. Like I’m not a fan of the current policy whatsoever, but placing the blame for the situation in Gaza on Joe Biden is insane. These morons have to be trying to get trump reelected, which we both know means the atrocities in Gaza will only get worse.
Liberals denying genocide the same way that Trumpists deny the Holocaust. Really sad to see the amount of brainwashing Americans have accepted.
You are as much of a cultist as a Republican.
No one denied the tragedy of the situation. I simply pointed out repeating a stupid nickname demonstrates an ignorance of 70 years of foreign policy that has stretched across administrations of both parties.
Now you’re calling me names like cultist. Are you implying republicans don’t support Israel and haven’t waged wars to remake the region Pax Americana?
everyone is responsible for their own actions, including genocide Joe. and slave state Joe.
It’s so sad that all you have is whataboutism isn’t it? And the worst part is that Genocide Joe isn’t even the lesser of evils anymore. He is now the worse evil.
Genocide Joe is the person able to stop this. Instead he removes all war crime restrictions on the weapons and protects israel with all his power. He is actively committing mass genocide.
A reminder that Genocide Joe has killed more than twice as many civilians than Putin in Ukraine already.
Not to mention the amount of children murdered by this barbaric Zio Nazi
Do your benefactors know you’re talking shit about them?
Your benefactors know I’m talking shit about them
https://youtu.be/j_qJiid6l1k?t=42s
Here I thought Israel was its own country, turns out it was just Biden all along.
They’re not a country they are a military colony.
lmao
If none of the neighbours recognize a country it’s not a country. Palestine is a country. Israel is an Apartheids occupation force.
You’d be up there in Russia calling Crimea Russian owned territory because they colonized it with military force for a few years.
With the exception of Lebanon Israel is recognized by all of its neighbours
Only the fully American controlled Jordan and Egypt recognize israel and that’s not because of the population.
You do realize that Hamas’s attack reason was because of the Abraham Accords right?
If you haven’t noticed he is not saving Palestine, he’s funding and providing the weapons for their slaughter
Is there any other option that won’t make the war worse?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-says-palestinian-authority-should-ultimately-govern-gaza-west-bank-2023-11-18/
Zionists could go back home to Europe and leave the region
And that has to do with Biden how? Do you want him to personally force the zionists out? As an American politician?
That is reductive as fuck, you have a good point so why lie by omission and ruin it?
Wheres the lie? He says theres no red line Israel could cross that they wouldnt have US support (He’s conding their slaughter), one of the 2 purposes for the Thanksgiving ceasefire was to replenish arms (providing weapons), and has authorized additional money (funding) for the apartheid terrorists to keep fighting
Saving Palestinians means getting rid of Hamas. Even the Egyptians understand this, which is why their attempt to negotiate peace had Hamas getting gone too.
Gazans deserve better, sadly many of them will die before they get better.
The problem is that you can’t really get rid of a terrorist organizational with violence unless you kill everyone in a group they draw from, violence will just radicalize more people. The only way to get rid of Hamas is with better conditions for the people of Palestine so they won’t radicalize.
You might not be able to kill all of them but history has shown us that you can certainly kill enough of them to allow for a multi decade long deradicalization program which is what it will take to rebuild the strip, decolonize Samaria (to an extent) and reeducate the people who are currently being taught Jews have horns and a whole lot of other bs.
Killing the leadership whose siphoning billions in aid money would also go a long way to improving the lives of the Palestinians. I’ve read Mossad is working on that, wishing them all the best.
Long game here means the Arab Nations who are currently not taking refugees will have to step up and help their brothers rebuild in a more modern fashion, UAE, Bahrain and Saudi should lead here IMO, with Saudi being tempered by the other two but kept feeling like they’re part of the solution.
Yet what is happening now will only cause more radicalisation or the death of most Palestinians. After the brutality Israel has shown those 2 are the only possible outcomes.
Also the leadership of Hamas isn’t in Gaza so not much chance of them dieing.
The Hamas leaders not in Gaza don’t need to die, they need to be severed from the strip which is done by taking out the top leadership which Israel has been doing well so far. They even nabbed an IRGC leader the other day. Those people’s day’s are numbered and they know it.
It’s happening, it’s not going to happen quickly though. Didn’t happen quickly after WW2 either. Long game.
They are going to run out of Palestinians before they run out of Hamas at this rate though that may be by design.
Well Hamas has made it very clear they don’t consider the lives of Palestinians to be their responsibility so sadly you might be right. They’ll sacrifice every one there before giving up the power they’re hanging on to. Seeing people raid aid trucks makes me hopeful they’re starting to turn on Hamas but I’m also seeing videos of Hamas shooting people taking aid supplies so hopefully they’ll run out of bullets before they run out of people so the civilians can access some of that aid.
And leave Palestinians defenceless? So you condone the genocide being committed by your blue fascist AND you want to accelerate their demise?
The only people looking out for Gazan civilians is Israel.
Hamas has openly said they’re not responsible for the safety of the people, the surrounding Arab Nations refuse to assist with refugee aid.
Let that sink in.
They refuse to aid and accept Palestinians because Palestinians ready have their own land, that’s been stolen
Will there be a Palestine by Jan 2024 and could any American President stop what’s going on?
Could? Yes. Would? Realistically, no, not even Bernie. We would have to all but strangle Israel to stop Bibi’s government from achieving the goal of the Israeli far-right since the foundation of Israel.
Well we could at least stop helping them
A non-starter in US politics. Support for Israel is too widespread amongst voters still. Even Bernie, who is at the left fringe of US politics, has only suggested attaching strings to the new multi-billion aid package.
Women voting was a non starter.
So was civil rights for black people.
Everything is a non starter if you don’t try
Centrists be like “Yeah! Isn’t it great?”
My point isn’t “We shouldn’t try anything”, my point is “Expecting results or making ultimatums at this juncture is divorced from reality.”
We need to work on swaying public opinion before threats to strategically vote against pro-Israel candidates and the like becomes even vaguely viable.
“It is hard to achieve change, therefore we shouldn’t even talk about it as a possibility”
And you’re the one calling others right wing trolls? AIPAC runs a strong lobbying game, and while there are sizable segments who are unflinchingly 100% pro-Israel, a growing section of the electorate is horrified to know that US bombs are dropped from US built aircraft, against a dramatically weaker force, by an army that is repeatedly callous in its treatment of Palestinian life. And the American taxpayer funds it, rules are bent or broken to deliver those weapons, all while dissent is silenced.
Hamas doesn’t have an air force or tanks, it barely runs mortar artillery - air power is massive overkill. And the IDF has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to knowingly kill 10, 40, 100+ civilians if they can get at mid level officer or two. I’m disgusted with their actions towards civilians, and disgusted at US leadership and diplomats providing repeated political cover at the UN to neuter any resolution to help.
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I mean his career is likely over so he definitely wasn’t gifted anything.
Not as long as he keeps this war going.
Well there isn’t a ‘Palestine’ now so it’s unlikely they’ll form a unifying government this week, most offices are closed.
Gaza and Samaria will be there next week, Gaza will be in rough shape though. They could benefit from an election themselves.
Hes already failed. Theyre dead.
Biden isn’t saving Palestine now. there is no reason to believe he would if he wins again.
And Trump has said we should nuke Palestine. Which is worse?
this is some what about ism. I’m not going to vote for either of them because neither of them is acceptable.
So if the national truly is between one of them and your duty as a citizen is to vote to reduce the impact damage from a bad president, you are just not going to vote?
Shame on you, people like you are why Trump was able to obtain power in the first place. Your apathy is dooming this already fragile democracy. Don’t give me that third candidate shit, not when a dictatorship is looming.
Fuck you, fuck you so much, enabler of horrors.
Fuck you, fuck you so much, enabler of horrors.
no, trump voters are the reason trump was able to gain power. also, the fact that we live in a liberal democracy helped. given the option i would abolish our liberal democracy.
in all likelihood, i’m going to be voting for cornel west. jill stein can still win me back.
I get what you’re saying but Biden sure as hell isn’t saving Palestine anytime soon. He’s a self-proclaimed Zionist.
There’s a reason he’s called genocide Joe.
Is it because the rightwing machine has decided that’s the name they’re going with because their dumbfuck base loves alliteration?
No, it’s because he’s currently funding and supporting genocide. Also why would the right wing even support Palestine?
How dumb can you be? You think the right gives a FUCK about consistency? It makes Joe look bad that’s all they need.
Furthermore, Biden has been instrumental in cease fires and the like but what is he supposed to do when Hamas continues to break agreements? Yes giving Israel arms without conditions is fucked up but Biden has been very vocal about what the IDF is doing is unacceptable and pleads for them to hold back and avoid the same mistakes we made post 9/11.
It’s an extremely complex political issue, you dress it up like Biden is waving a goddamn Bibi flag and cheering him on.
By painting such a complicated issue black and white you do yourself and your perspective a disservice. You have good points but you just shit on them because of how reductive you choose to be.
Shame.
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No it’s because of his support of genocide.
Hell I had never even heard of it when I started using it
Why would the Democrats themselves label him genocide Joe?
Because we are sick of him aiding the commission of genocide?
Anyone calling this situation a genocide is ignorant.
West Bank is arguably a slow moving Genocide. Gaza was left alone for the most part until militants / terrorists attacked from Gaza.
This here is just your standard military operation. Yeah, it’s bloody and deadly. That’s not what a genocide is. Even a massive bombing campaign (ex: Tokyo firebombs or Hiroshima) are not genocides.
A genocide is an attack on the people in an attempt to make a culture extinct. Trail of Tears, Holocaust, etc. Etc. Are genocides. Intent matters, meaning matters.
Ie: Death to Israel is a literal genocidal chant. No one is calling for death to Palestine. This entire situation is so backwards is laughable.
Then why is Israel saying they intend to keep Gaza?
What else do you call cutting off people’s power, food, and water?
What else do you call telling people that an area is a safe zone and then bombing it anyway?
What do you call mass indiscriminate bombings?
But don’t worry, they will slow walk it enough that people like you can deny it until they are already gone and then people like you will tell us “Well, that’s all in the past, we should just forgive them now and move on.”
Conquest is not genocide. Conquest is conquest.
Israel controls food, water and electricity because Gaza is so poor they don’t have their own food, water or electricity. When a poor pseudo-State attacks literally the country providing them food / water and electricity, we call that ‘Gaza/Hamas being a dumbass’. Israel is under no circumstance should be forced into giving aid to the people who declared war upon them.
Maybe next time, before killing thousands of Israel’s, the leaders of Gaza can try I dunno, establishing a food/fuel/electricity deal with Egypt first?
Oh that’s right, Hamas doesn’t give a shit about the people so they’re actually stealing the food and fuel for themselves. Last time Israel was building pipes for water for Gaza, Hamas literally dug up the pipes and turned them into rockets. Israel literally cannot give these people any aid as long as Hamas is in power, because all aid becomes perverted into weapons by Hamas. So what the fuck is Israel supposed to do about that?
Israel has genocidal tendencies in the West Bank so yes, we need to keep our eyes out. But what you see here isn’t genocide. It’s just war, the war that Hamas wanted and still wants to happen.
Genocide is when you try to kill off a culture or entire group of people. All these bombs won’t do that actually. Tokyo recovered for example and I promise you far more people and civilians died in the Tokyo Firebombing campaign.
Is Israel brutal? Yes. But this isn’t new news at all. But calling this a genocide is just counterproductive and only demonstrates your sides ignorance to world matters.
You can hide behind whatever words you want to try to make you feel better.
I may not be able to stop it, but to my dying day I will do my best to make sure never to support israel .
I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.
I will make sure that future generations see that israel is no longer deserving of our help, only our disdain for their killing of innocents.
For their mockery of innocent children dying in pain, pouring out water just to taunt people who are without, and calling them animals, and if the “nation” of israel falls, well I guess I’ll have a coke.
Because they don’t actually know what Genocide is, and they’re really bad at alliteration / word games.
In any case, it’s not Democrats who do this, but far left Gen Z tiktokers who are seemingly too young to understand foreign policy.
We support Israel because they are an ally on the world stage, and are one of Israel’s few allies. It is a bad idea to throw away our friendship to Israel especially after they were attacked.
But this friendship has costs. Israel always was rather militant. So if they get attacked, they disproportionally attack back. Furthermore, Hamas wants this to happen (Hamas still rejects ceasefires, calls to return hostages, and are raiding the aid packages to Palestinian civilians).
Welcome to the Middle East. This shit sucks.
When your friends are killing babies, maybe it’s time to quit being friends with them?
Radical idea, I know.
What do you call it when there are nine people are in table and a Nazi sit down and no one reacts?
10 Nazi’s
Never forget was supposed to mean stopping what happens not taking notes for your game plan.
Hamas is killing babies.
Israel is killing babies.
Now what?
Don’t provide weapons to either of them?
Not even to the technologically superior one who has given us a lot of military support and is key to our foreign policy goals in the Middle East?
Let’s say we abandon Israel. Who the fuck do we ally with in the Middle East? The anti-women Saudis who literally created the Wahhabi Islam that empowered Bin Laden? Iraq or Afghanistan? Iran hates us too.
Our alliance with Israel is out of larger scale necessity and long term friendship. For all of the faults of them (and yes, this war in Gaza is exceptionally brutal, though not genocidal), Israel has military power, military intelligence, and technology that we are borrowing.
Intel / Mobileye / etc.etc. are from Israel. Some of the most important technologies of our society are from Israel.
When both suck, but one is a good friend and has tech that we want, being friends with the powerful and technologically advanced is just a winning strategy.
One of those two parties has the power to end this conflict over night, and yet for decades they’ve done nothing but create more illegal settlements, and murder more Palestinian civilians.
Indeed. Egypt has proposed a peace plan and… Oh right. Hamas rejected it. Okay, well, if Hamas can’t even accept a peace plan crafted by a majority-Muslim country like Egypt what the hell do you expect Israel to do?
Now how about this, you start talking about which countries should try to step in and negotiate the peace deal between Hamas and Israel, and how this peace can actually be crafted. We just tried the Egyptian approach (with help from Qatar) and that’s floundering.
Or was there something in the Egyptian / Qatar peace plan that looked unfair for the Palestinians to you?
We treat them both the same?
But seriously, let’s just treat them both the same. Let’s let Israel’s ass cash. The checks its mouth is writing.
I bet we can change their name to Hummingbird real quick
He’s not, and it’s not going to stick no matter how hard you try.
I know it’s a tall order for conservatives, but you guys really gotta start getting more creative with the names. Putting an adjective in front of a person’s first name is like bottom tier effort.
What do you expect him to do? Biden has already called for Netanyahu to resign. Do you want him to send the U.S. military in to fight the Israeli military in defense of people that want the United States to burn?
Maybe stop selling them weapons?
We don’t just sell weapons on the fly, there are specific agreements and contracts. It’s not just a simple “no more” situation.
The bottom line is Israel is a key part of the US defense machine, integration like that makes it extremely non-trivial to adjust in a reactionary manner.
But go off, tell us how easy the solution truly is
I have a few ideas
Also notice there were no attacks from Gaza during Trump’s presidency. Guy is so unhinged they didn’t want to fuck around.
Trump has literally called for the eradication of Palestine. He implemented Muslim travel bans, he drone striked Iranian generals just cuz, I could go on and on.
How fucking brain dead can you be?
You clearly paid zero attention to reality, or are a shill for Trump.
His disaster of a ‘peace plan’ and recognition of the annexation of Jerusalem ratcheted tensions needlessly, and ending rapprochement with Iran and the nuclear deal has arguably led to Oct7 and jeopardized deeper Israeli-Saudi relations.
Voting for Hitler is the only way to save the Jews!
As a practically pragmatic question, countries die all the time, why is this one so important? It’s clear that even the Arab world hates Palestinians, so it’s not like anyone in the region actually cares about them. Seems like having Gaza, stomped under Israel’s foot but alive, is more beneficial for the anti Israel nations, than a free and happy Palestinian people.
Even Europe refuses to take any Palestinian refugees cause they don’t want them in their country, but they all pretend to care.
Anyways, so many countries died out in the last 150 years, it doesn’t seem like that rare of a thing.
“It’s not that rare” /=/ “We shouldn’t care”
ffs I didn’t think “Genocide is bad” was such a fucking controversial point of view anymore.
Genocide IS bad, calling every war a genocide doesn’t make it so however.
If you’re American, your country did worse to my people, so maybe we should string up your people.
“Maybe we should care about genocide?”
“Maybe we should commit genocide on YOUR people!”
Yes, very good rebuttal.
I’m just sick of Americans trying to play the moral high ground, while they bathe in the blood of my people and enjoy the wealth they stole. In any case, your country is the one propping up Israel and this war, so get off your high horse
“God, I’m so sick of people trying to be better, don’t they understand that they should just pick evil and stick to it?”
Very mature viewpoint. As expected from someone who suggested lynching Americans as a response to a suggestion that genocide is bad.
Funny how to Americans, only a decade or two is enough time to wash your hands of an atrocity you committed in your own backyard and tell the person you victimized, to essentially move on and forget it, in favor of whatever atrocity is happening on the other side of the planet.
“Boohoo, we can’t genocide. Why are you so mean to us?”
we all know whataboutism is valid
We should hang up those responsible.
It’s bullshit how much shit my country pulls.
It’s because we’re currently witnessing genocide. Usually even if the country goes away the people stay. When that’s not the case we usually call it genocide or ethnic cleansing, and these are not things we should just watch.
Also to be clear, Arab leaders don’t care about Palestinians. The people very much do care.
I’ve never met Arab leadership, but the Arab people I know from work and my building, despise Palestinians. (I live in a heavily Arab neighborhood). There’s definitely an old cultural grudge there, kinda like how Slavic countries all hate each other without really knowing why.
I think the rest of the world is helping in this genocide if that’s what’s happening, since like I said, the people who want out aren’t being taken by anyone. Refugees from all nations are taken willingly enough by most Western nations, but they don’t want anything to do with Palestinian refugees
Maybe it depends on the Arabs? This is very much not the case in Egypt, but it could be the case somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula.
??? Egyptians HATE, Palestinians. They’re not even welcome in the country, they’ve never been granted status despite loads movement over the years. Egypt didn’t even want Gaza when Israel gave it to them, they said no thanks to a free strip of coastline because they don’t want the headache that comes with the people who live there. Jordan… even worse.
This shit is wild, like how can people really not see how the policies of Netanyahu’s administration makes Jewish people around the world (including inside Israel proper) less safe?