I’ll tell you a secret you might have missed.
It’s not about the privacy.
It’s about a foreign country of similar power levels having the ability to shape your people’s political opinions.
They’re shitting themselves because it’s one of the first times it’s happened to them instead of them doing it to someone else.
It’s about a foreign country of similar power levels having the ability to shape your people’s political opinions.
I think it’s more about the US empire losing its ability to control some people.
Nah. They haven’t lost shit.
They’re just bricking it over turnabout being FairPlay for once.
I feel like the American media is out of control and is no longer a tool of the people, but a fire hose of the wealthy, disseminating whatever will help them keep their power.
They have convinced the people that news makes you intelligent, when really the lack of new ideas and differing viewpoints creates a closed feedback loop so they just regurgitate whatever they hear with absolute confidence, but if you ask them a question it all falls apart.
Fox, CNN, New York Times, NPR, it’s all owned or supported in such a way that they dare not bite the hand that feeds it.
So I, for one, am open to hearing what foreign countries have to say.
No matter what your source of information is, you always have to be mindful and take information in context, and be sure to validate unproven claims. There’s a thousand interests competing for your attention and loyalty, and a lot of it is driven through fear and uncertainty.
Any fearmongering about China makes me uncomfortable, as it should every rational thinking person. Just like fearmongering against everyone should be viewed with suspicion.
Be careful out there, everyone. It’s a wild jungle.
new user freshly connected to internet, would you rather:
-waste your precious time and attention on hypercapitalist hellscape headquartered in usa, or
-waste your precious time and attention on hypercapitalist hellscape headquartered in china
Why not spend your time on a Japanese platform? We got anime ~
Japanese sites have web ui designs that are pretty bad. Argue way worse than having to use the official reddit app ad wise.
Is wasting my precious time and attention on an anticapitalist hellscape headquartered on distributed servers around the world an option?
as long as it lasts
I would pick whatever entertains me the most.
The key difference is that American Government agencies don’t have access to the information TikTok steals from its users.
Edit: This comment implied the US has easy access to the data from companies like Facebook.
This is naive. America has all the laws they need to get data from private companies, just the same as China
And thanks to Snowden revelations we know for a fact that US companies work directly with US government and share all their user data.
Sure, but there’s a difference between having the potential to do something, and actively doing it. I’m aware the FBI/CIA can get my data from Google if they want it, but something would have to trigger them into wanting to investigate me. With a Chinese company there is no “if”, all of the data goes straight to the CCP. Tencent, the bloated multimedia company, even had a moment of ironic hypocrisy where they didn’t want to give away all of their users’ data.
The US and UK governments have literally that
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
You should probably read your own links. It only reinforces what I said. Also, I’m thankfully not American.
I assume you’re referring to the fact that it claims to be based on court orders
You might want to look into what the FISA court counts as oversight
At least in theory they have to get a warrant, although there are plenty of examples of tech companies handing over information without one. They definitely have access to all the same information if they really want it though.
Edit: In hindsight I think I may have misinterpreted how that post was intended. American government agencies do have a harder time getting access to TikTok’s information, although at least for US users TikTok has separate servers that make it possible for them to do so.
They have to get a warrant to demand it, yes. But if they show up with a bag full of money, the companies will just turn it right over.
They probably don’t even need that. Corpos like to work with the government, it’s mutual.
Yeah, what does Meta have to lose? Only their reputation for protecting user privacy, which was lost long ago.
This is what people miss. Furthermore, it’s reasonable not to want an enemy state to have access to information relating to a country’s citizens. Yes, the US has done. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, they are getting a taste of their own medicine. That’s why they’re worried about it. They know how badly that information can be used.
Furthermore, it is clear the Chinese government has an influence over app contents. It is easy for them to use it to shape the opinions of their userbase depending on the country.
Exactly this
America is guilty of everything Americans accuse China about.
Ya, but when America is in control it’s okay. /s
This is implicitly an argument that Tik Tok should be banned.
Sure, but they at least pretend to care. When Google steals my data, they pretend to not have it. When China has my data, literally anybody can have my data.
Americans when Canadians say they’d prefer TikTok spying vs an American company:
but seriously. I want no one to have my data, but if someone HAD to have it, I would prefer TikTok over anything from Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, etc…
My country wont export me to China if I post something negative or pirate something. My country will export me to the US if they come banging on my door. I am quite literally safer letting China have a bit of my data.
I am pretty sure TikTok would comply if you posted something illegal under Canada law or US law. Sure they aren’t based in the US but that doesn’t mean they don’t operate within the US and can just ignore the US laws. I assume they also have operations within Canada as well.
China literally holds our citizens hostage to attempt to force us to permit their espionage. Openly operates police depots on Canadian territory to terrorize people here. It’s not the fucking same.
I’m not talking about that. Please stay on topic. My simple statement is true, and doesn’t mean that I love China. I don’t. You’ll never catch me ever talking positive about China or ever stepping foot in China.
How convenient! It’s on topic because it should be informing your choice who you want exploiting you.
Will you never have a loved one step foot in China? Will you never come to care for the Chinese Canadians and their families abroad who are vulnerable, or is it enough that it doesn’t affect you personally? China’s government has no problem using people’s families against them.
the hell are you talking about
You’re unhinged and insufferable. I said none of those things. Please, get help.
You’re upset because I think China having my data vs the US is the slightly lesser of two evils.
If I could pick, I’d pick no one having my data. Both countries are shit and both countries would do bad things with my data. One has less control over me, so I’d pick that one, I guess.
China didn’t invade/bomb Iraq, Afganistan, Syria, Libya… America did.
Watabout watabout watabout watabout watabout watabout watabout watabout
Fallacist’s fallacy.
whatabout is the correct response when talking to hypocrites.
Don’t worry the illegally operating Chinese police station in your city will just come and get you. No need to be exported, you get to be questioned and held by a foreign officer without any direct oversight in your own country!
The point
your head
The point being that the US even if aggressive uses the proper channels to pursue action against entities it believes to be dangerous?
How is that worse than China illegally and secretively doing the exact same thing within your own borders they promised to respect.
Tf are you on lol
I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.
I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.
I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.
Nobody cares.
Then people should stop asking me…
Okay next time you can stop there then if that’s all you want to say. No need to vaguely complain about YOUR GOVERNMENT extraditing criminals to the US while willfully ignoring the fact China engages in ILLEGAL operations within your border.
This is the worst take I’ve ever heard. The concerns are “capitalist targeted advertising” vs “a foreign power abusing American user data to target and push agendas on it’s people”.
Is lemmygrad leaking??
I’m not a lemmygrad user. I’m simply stating facts?
There’s literally many recent news articles of Canadians getting in legal trouble from American companies because of the things they posted or things they downloaded.
The Canadian government isn’t handing me over to China or allowing China to come get me.
My comment is not even pro China. I’m just saying that nothing I say or do will allow China to put me in jail. Can’t say the same about America.
You should learn to read. I would prefer no one get my data, but it’s statistically safer for me for China to get it over an American company. However, no one should get it. Fuck shit American companies, fuck shit Chinese companies.
This is actually what I wanted to say to a lot of people. During peace times, allowing a foreign adversary stealing your data is a lot less damaging to your personal freedoms than your own government stealing your data. We need to be wary every time when our own government tries to tries to introduces surveillance laws under the disguise of “national security”.
“Peace times” doesn’t mean much when wars are waged through propagandizing a countries population to promote civil unrest. Russia was doing this for years and look how it changed the country completely in 2016. I’m certain china will be doing the same. I think people vastly underestimate the value of this data, and what a foreign power can do with it. They can subtly shape the future of a country to damage it far worse than some proxy war will.
I’m glad that you brought up the problem of foreign propaganda. I firmly believe the government shouldn’t be there to tell me what kind of views I can and cannot see. Some exceptions already exist such as blatant calls for violence which we already have clear guidelines on. Other than that, government is in no place to regulate speech. What’s the point of beating Russia and China when we become just like them?
For me America is the foreign power. One that keeps murdeing people in my corner of the world.
You’re about half right. How about just not giving the foreign adversary your data at all?
You don’t NEED TikTok. Nobody does, it’s fucking garbage artificial ADD fuel. Everyone should get rid of it.
Well I don’t use TikTok and couldn’t care less if they get banned. If you actually read the bills that’s getting passed like the RESTRICT act in the US you’d realize it’s not about banning TikTok and it has numerous vague and concerning clauses that infringes on your privacy. My opinion is always have better privacy laws and enforce it equally on all companies. When my government blatantly tries to steal more of my data and pretend they’re actually doing me a favor I’d rather the foreign adversary have it for free.
Well I agree with everything you said there, except for the last 9 words of it.
To each their own. Ideally no company should have those data that can be used for spying by any government. But if I have to choose, I personally fear government overreach more than anything else. We can agree to disagree here.
Peace time?! China is waging a cold war against Western democracies!
so war hasn’t broken out, what’s your point? Last time I checked China still isn’t able to send agents to my house to arrest me, but folks here are getting misreported for CSAM to the feds by google scanning their pictures without consent.
So are the same Western democracies… nearly half of the US is too stupid to understand how voting for an orange Mussolini wannabe was a horrible idea. There’s undeniable proof that the CIA interfered with the Brazilian government between 2016 and 2020. Italy is once again on the brink of Fascism.
Yep no need to worry about china in Canada! You’re so safe there!
How is “getting in trouble with American companies” (i.e. getting banned from a platform for breaking their rules) worse than a foreign power trying to influence a countries people? You’re not going to jail for posting dumb bullshit lol
US is the foreign power that has the most influence on people in Canada dummy.
No, the US is the foreign power who’s culture has the biggest influence on people in Canada, there’s no tangible reason to believe that big US tech companies are feeding your data to the US government and taking orders on how to influence it’s people. Tech companies in the US have shown time and time again that they have no interest in working with the US government (a problem of itself) and every piece of user data handed over has been through a court order.
TikTok has failed numerous global security audits and there’s reason to believe that they’re tied directly to the Chinese government and being used by the Chinese government to influence foreign citizens via misinformation and the removal of “anti-Chinese” material.
Yeah yeah, both are bad, sure, but one is worse and it’s direct Chinese government influence. Anyone that says otherwise is a troll or needs to seriously practice some basic critical thinking skills.
US is the foreign power whose culture, money, media companies, and oligarchs have the biggest influence on Canada. This is the country that constantly meddles in Canadian politics. Meanwhile, we know perfectly well after Snowden leaks that US companies very much do work with US government, and one has to be an utter ignoramus to claim otherwise.
Meanwhile, numerous audits have shown that the type of data TikTok collects is exactly the same as any other major social media platform. Stop spreading misinformation here.
Thinking that there is any equivalence between the amount of influence US and China have on Canada is sheer idiocy, and your woefully misinformed comment inadvertently highlights the problem. You should take your own advice and practice some critical thinking skill as not to make a 🤡 of yourself in public in the future.
Meanwhile, we know perfectly well after Snowden leaks that US companies very much do work with US government, and one has to be an utter ignoramus to claim otherwise.
As I previously said, this was data they were ordered to hand over, which is obviously problematic, but since then E2EE has been implemented all over big tech while they’ve fought against backdoor access. While this is obviously self-serving and only because of global backlash, it proves that these tech companies have no interest in working for the US government. Your statements are surface level depth and show a real lack of understanding on this subject.
Meanwhile, numerous audits have shown that the type of data TikTok collects is exactly the same as any other major social media platform. Stop spreading misinformation here.
Stop sliding the conversation. I never said they collected more data, I said they’ve failed security audits and there is reason to believe they are willingly handing it over the Chinese government and taking direction from the Chinese government.
Thinking that there is any equivalence between the amount of influence US and China have on Canada is sheer idiocy, and your woefully misinformed comment inadvertently highlights the problem.
Lol again, as I said, you’re mistaking culture influence for foreign government influence.
You’re continuously sliding the conversation into trying to make it sound like I feel like US tech has no issues while being critical of Chinese tech. I am critical of both, however I’m not an “utter ignoramus” lmao and I can recognize how fucking stupid of a statement “I prefer China to have my data” is.
I’m gunna go with Chinese propaganda troll for you!
Edit: Hahaha called it. Check out this dude’s posts, it’s all Chinese and anti-west propaganda.
Who said about getting banned?
If I pirate Photoshop, Adobe could come for me if they really wanted to. Canada doesn’t care about piracy, you don’t need to use a VPN here, but if the American company Adobe really wanted at me, Canada would not stop them.
If I pirated some Chinese software
theretheir government couldn’t do shit to me.You know geohot, the guy sued by Sony for hacking the ps3? He was American, but that doesn’t change much. If he was Canadian, he would’ve been fucked just the same. Now if I hacked a Chinese console to enable piracy, literally nothing would happen to me.
If I made a threat on the Presidents life, I would be watched and potentially have American feds knocking on my door. If I threatened China, I would get upvotes and people would laugh.
You’re not really understanding what I’m saying. I’m assuming you’re American? The country where pretty much every massive company operates from? Well, the rest of the world hates that nearly everything we do is funneled back into the US.
Use Windows? MacOS? Android? iOS? Gmail? Outlook? Yahoo? Microsoft Office? Facebook? Instagram? Reddit?.. the list goes on.
Now imagine if 95% of your data was funneled into a different country. I’m sure you’d hate it. Especially with the state of American politics right now. Your country is dangerous.
I’m not American, I’m Canadian, and I never said that I’m cool with their government’s recent developments, but that doesn’t mean the Chinese government collecting and using your data to push it’s agenda on foreign citizens is better, that’s absolutely insane.
And your argument is that you want to freely and openly hack proprietary software and make threats on the US president’s life? Lol what the fuck.
Please tell me where China is pushing their agenda on me? My TikTok is full of American and Canadian creators, talking about technology, science, animals, and comedy. Also a bit of food.
That’s also not my argument, but congrats on missing the point.
If you don’t understand what I’m saying, that’s on you. I’m not having a back and forth about this any longer, I escaped Reddit because of that. You can go back there if you want to argue and mix words with others. I’m not having that.
When they kidnap your fucking neighbours and hold them for fucking extortion of your fucking state, that is China pushing their fucking agenda on you, for fucking fuck’s sake.
When they religiously persecute CANADIAN CITIZENS in fucking CANADIAN TERRITORY, that’s China pushing their agenda on you.
I mean they literally censor and ban creators for anything they deem to be anti-Chinese and then turn around and deny it ever happens, but sure, let’s use your personal anecdotal evidence to make our opinions here.
Mix words? I took direct quotes from your comment lol. Glad you left Reddit because you weren’t clear enough though I guess
Don’t waste your time, the guy is a troll. Just look at the comment history.
Are you seriously implying the 'murican government wouldn’t get easy access to whatever data an US company has on you?
I’m not implying anything, I am absolutely sure it is harder for the US government to get your personal data from US tech companies than it is for the Chinese government to get your data from TikTok.
Why would US Republicans be purchasing data from the Cambridge Analytica leak if Facebook was already handing it over? And this article was posted here the other day showing that the FBI cannot access messaging data from apps that properly implement E2EE. Even WhatsApp, a Meta product ffs, only hands over limited contact info, and big US tech has been increasingly adding E2EE to their apps and lobbying against backdoor access since the public backlash over the Snowden leaks.
But that isn’t even the only concern, we’re talking straight foreign influence as a security concern here. Yes, domestic influence is also bad, I’m against propaganda and dangerous censorship of all forms, but one is absolutely worse.
As you can probably tell from this thread, it’s very easy to say edgy inflammatory like “I’d rather China have my data”, but they rarely back it up with anything other than whatifs.
I am absolutely sure it is harder for the US government to get your personal data from US tech companies than it is for the Chinese government to get your data from TikTok.
So am I, but “harder” doesn’t mean “hard”.
Why would US Republicans be purchasing data from the Cambridge Analytica leak if Facebook was already handing it over?
You’re confusing government - particularly the executive power - with political parties. Republicans want to manipulate the opinions of their voter base so they can get elected and be bribed by corporations. The FBI/CIA/Whatever-other-agency want to prevent their secrets from leaking, dominate and subjugate certain groups, and control global shifts of power. They, of course, also investigate illegal activities online, but that’s probably a tertiary concern at best.
And this article was posted here the other day showing that the FBI cannot access messaging data […]
You missed the very important word “legally”. We know, however, that the FBI doesn’t give a shit about doing things legally.
But that isn’t even the only concern, we’re talking straight foreign influence as a security concern here. Yes, domestic influence is also bad, I’m against propaganda and dangerous censorship of all forms, but one is absolutely worse.
Indeed, one is worse - but I don’t believe you’re correct in which one it is. Having LIVED a period of clear PsyOps, both internal and external, as well as seen US “security” agencies meddling with my country’s government, I’ll tell you the US is currently much more dangerous.
You missed the very important word “legally”. We know, however, that the FBI doesn’t give a shit about doing things legally.
You don’t know how end to end encryption works do you? Kinda wasting my time here if you’ve formed such a strong opinion on something you don’t actually understand lol.
YOU don’t understand how encryption works, do you?
I do, I work with it, but classic “I know your are but what am I” argument lmao
No, the problem is Chinese-aligned whataboutism, a hallmark of tankie bullshit. People deflect to American spying to justify Tiktok’s spying, as if people aren’t already mad at Meta, Google, Amazon, and the rest spying on them. On the individual level, one is letting anyone “get away” with spying, so saying Tiktok should “also” be able to get away with spying is complete bullshit. We can be mad about all of these companies spying at us at the same time.
Have you seen anyone respond to criticism about Facebook’s tracking policies with “oh but Tiktok also tracks you so you should be okay with this?” Because I sure haven’t, but it comes up all the time when people discuss Tiktok. It’s just so disingenuous… allow people to discuss topics, we’ll get to shitting on Facebook and Google too, don’t worry. Detracting every Tiktok convo to that just makes you appear as if you’re trying to shove their wrongdoing under the rug.
And if you’re talking about foreign policy, western social medias are already blocked in China out of the same national security concerns that’s behind a potential Tiktok ban. It is extremely dangerous to allow foreign, especially hostile powers to influence your society through the algorithms of a social media, because they have a very clear incentive to make your population elect the worst possible people and sow chaos. This is why a lot of non-western-aligned countries block western social medias, and this is why the west should also block non-western social medias. It wouldn’t be unprecedented.
You are aware thar 'murica, your golden “western democracy”, has meddled in many more elections than China, yes? The CIA has been proven to be connected to TWO Brazilian coups…
Which is why I wouldn’t blame Brazil if they banned American or otherwise western-aligned social medias. But I’m sorry, “we fucked around with others and therefore we shouldn’t ensure our own national security” is a completely lunatic take.
First, neither coup was related to social media. Second, that’s a strawman
It really isn’t a strawman. There are two ways you can interpret the above meme:
- We shouldn’t allow American companies to spy either
- We should allow Chinese companies to spy too
Interpretation #1 is one of the coldest takes possible on the internet. Read the room, no one was excusing American companies of spying, and plenty of people are mad about Meta, Twitter, and the rest. Hell, the whole reason most of us are here on Lemmy is because we grew tired of more corporate social medias. The meme format here implies that the point expressed is controversial, and interpretation #1 is objectively non-controversial, so the meme is either stupid or that’s not what it’s saying.
And interpretation #2 is exactly what you just called a strawman here. It’s complete lunacy and borderline bootlicking to suggest that we should allow other companies to also spy on us. And why exactly? Just because you want to see that team “win”, at the expense of all of us losing even more?
But I have to think you’re going with interpretation #2, because of this:
First, neither coup was related to social media.
If those coups weren’t related to social media, why bring them up? We’re discussing social media here. This only makes sense if you’re playing the us vs them of geopolitics, and like, just don’t.
In the end, we want none of these companies to spy on us. And unlike domestic companies or those headquartered in allied countries, social media companies in hostile countries not only pose a risk to individual privacy, they are also a national security risk. Which is why China bans western social medias, and why the west should also ban Chinese social medias. Both of these measures are a net benefit, and neither of these measures precludes taking action against domestic or allied social medias – but unlike Bytedance, which is a Chinese company, western regulation can be enforced far easier against western social medias, and the same can be said about Chinese regulation regarding Chinese social medias.
True but also true: you are comparing multinational corporations to the Chinese government, who is currently waging cold war against Western states. That’s the quiet part they’re taking care not to say loud, hence posturing.
Of course, why else would China build their country so close to all those US military bases. Such agression
I shouldn’t defend myself from China because the USA built bases, is that your argument?
whatabout
I think it pretty clear they’re just responding to this part of your comment and arguing the opposite. (Which is correct.)
…the Chinese government, who is currently waging cold war against Western states.
Fallacist’s Fallacy. Or, how about actually have a response rather than just trying to flag the play and strut around like you won.
Show me on the doll where China touched you
In the south China sea lol
You mean roughly the part of the world where the US used Agent Orange and flamethrowers?
Oh, and nuked twice. Almost forgot.
The Philippines: am I a joke to you?
Certainly not. They were colonized. Should have remembered that as well.
Yes, you probably should listen to some Filipino perspectives on the south China sea.
or in the sovereign country where most of the entire world’s chip supply comes from, but “china needs it more” so we should just let them invade
also, don’t forget all the chinese propaganda about how they’re going to dethrone america and become the world superpower. do they seriously expect to wage a cold war and not have the west respond to that?
Who are you even talking to? Did someone let Kissinger into this discussion? We have rules about that.
Canada isn’t so big that it’s statistically unlikely I don’t know someone China “touched” and is still “touching” today. More than 5% of Canadians are Chinese. With Chinese police actions being documented to be carried out within 100km of me and quite likely within my own city, it’s starting to get pretty fucking personal for everyone over here.
If they’re Chinese citizens then they are technically still bound by Chinese law even while living abroad, just as an american or Canadian would be if they were living in another country.
Unless you’re speaking of Canadian citizens that are ethnic Chinese but not citizens of the PRC then I would like so see some proof on these documented Chinese police actions in Canada.
Has everyone forgotten when Zuck was brought before congress and grilled about Facebook? True, the reps merely embarrassed themselves through their own ignorance, but being ineffectual is not the same as hypocracy.
Lol yeah politicians haven’t exactly been abstaining from grandstanding about domestic social media giants.
Both are bad.
But only one is a national security threat.
Depends on the perspective
Is it the one that radicalizes people into white supremacist terrorism?
Can’t we just say that both are bad?
We should be saying both are bad. We need much stronger, EU like privacy laws.
And how would privacy laws be applied to TikTok, which is outside the jurisdiction of these laws?
The only way to get TikTok to have any privacy policies at all is by threatening to block them.
Which is what’s happening.
TikTok isn’t outside of that jurisdiction, they are operating in places like the US. If they violate privacy laws, you remove them from accessing that market
No one who has ever said “neither Washington nor Beijing” has ever meant it; and marks you as just another Beltway settler afaic.
I think that is generally the point?
Often Americans point to china as big bad for shit America is actively doing as well, while pretending America is so great. They both fucking suck. They both want to be the major super power and to do so they both do horrible shit to their own people, people in other countries, entire other countries, both extremely capitalistic, etc.
Not on the mass media.
Mass media are at their core propaganda tools. Their mission is to further the agendas of whoever finances them, they are not driven by the pursuit of truth, justice or anything related such as the defense of privacy.
politicians are actively talking about banning tiktok. let me know when they do the same for twitter, instagram, reddit, facebook, tinder, youtube, google, amazon, and every other US site that does the exact same snooping that tiktok does. THEN we can say “both are bad”.
I think you’ve got it backwards. If we can’t acknowledge that both are bad before talking about banning them, then what justification do we have for banning them?
It’s like picking on a younger sibling.
It’s okay when you, the older sibling, do it. But when a stranger does it, you kick their ass.
I remember articles in the early 00s about how China wouldn’t allow Google to operate there and a big deal was made about “the great firewall of China” and how it was all about censorship, but now that China has an influential internet service, US congress is demanding they hand over ownership of US operations to a US company.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Xenophobia (from Ancient Greek ξένος (xénos) ‘strange, foreign, alien’, and φόβος (phóbos) ‘fear’) is the fear or dislike of anything which is perceived as being foreign or strange.
The same fearmongering would’ve happened to American social media apps if it wasn’t for that sweet sweet data the US government is able to get.
Their politicians are geriatric boomers. Biden can barely make sense on his phrases when he speaks. Just let the USA implode
So many people here who don’t understand why people are able to criticize more than one country be like:
A: “Tell me the difference between these pictures:” || xor
B: “They are the same”
Now do American politicians when an elementary school is attacked by a gunman.
There’d be nothing for the top box.
When a trans person is on a beer can:
When an elementary school is shot up for the 5th time this week by a gunman:
