Honestly it feels like I’m taking crazy pills some days. I run local models on my system, and the technology is legitimately fascinating. I am not talking about the broligarchy, merely the underlying technology is weird and fun to play with.
One thing is for certain - the box Pandora had this thing lying around in has been kicked open, and it cannot be shut. We’ll just have to figure out what that means for all of us.
Good question. I think there’s some truth to it. Somehow a lot of fascist people love AI. For example a certain president posts a lot of gen AI pictures, sometimes videos of himself dropping poo on the citizens. Other regimes just use it to manifest some video surveillance dystopia. And to be frank, there is no other tech to enable surveillance on that level.
It’s also a good tool to manipulate people on a grand scale, make custom propaganda, exploit psychology…
LLMs and related systems are made in a completely top-down way. They’re under control of the Chinese government and a few select US tech oligarchs like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman and their companies. They get to shape it. And they’re kind of Anti-Robin-Hoods. They steal from the poor, the workers and artists, and give to the rich. They get more power and money. And I didn’t yet mention Peter Thiel and some other companies who are working on some AI assisted version of doomsday, or at minimum some scifi dystopia with predictive policing and that kind of stuff.
Also comes with a few fascist side-effects. Like disposession of land, polluting the environment and poor people get to suffer the consequences of climate change. Rich people can just buy a new house and clean water…
I mean not all AI is fascist. But I see lots of reason to believe it aligns well with fascist wet dreams. And not so much with their opponents’.
On contrary: Space travel helps all of us. I get to learn new science things. Get to use my sat nav in the car… 400 TV channels… a more precise weather forecast… We needed to advance material science for space travel, push solar cell technology, which I can make use of as of today to break free from big oil… I also got to contribute some taxpayer money to make it happen, so it wasn’t just forced upon me by oligarchs…
The printing press has been a crucial tool for fascist propagandists ever since its inception. Does that make the technology fascist?
I just got done reading The Demon Haunted World, and can’t help but draw a comparison. It’s perfectly reasonable to be afraid for the future of democracy right now, but it really feels like people think AI is powered by literal sprites, dancing around on puppet strings at the whim of the fascists who summoned them. It’s math. Math isn’t ideological. It is simply a fact of the universe that an LLM is possible.
Yeah, we have to make sure it is applied responsibly, because yeah it’s a very powerful phenomenon. Yes, they were made using stolen information, and I fully believe that all LLMs and training data should be fully open sourced for public use as a result, and making any profit from them is unethical. It’s stealing from Peter and Paul to sell to Peter and Paul.
But one day fascists are bound to fail, and you know what will still exist in the world that comes next? AI/LLMs/some future iteration of a transformer-based neural network. It’s not the first technology loved and/or invented by fascists, and it won’t be the last. But I think in a panic, people are willing to burn down anything in an 50ft radius of any fascist. Keep the knowledge, ditch the fascism, stop acting out of fear.
I really think those are two different pairs of shoes. The printing press allowed people to make information more accessible to the masses. A lot of people got more educated because of it. Of course as a tool it can also be used for evil. But in reality that’s not what happened. It’s mainly been used for good. It displaced some jobs, but that wasn’t the people’s jobs, but monks in the scriptorium. Other people got to learn to read and write because of it. In fact we went from being able to read as something special, to almost everyone gets to learn to read because of it.
With AI on the other hand (or foot, to stick with the ‘pairs of shoes’ metaphor) it’s gonna be your job and the monks/aristocrats get their scriptorium back to cook up the information of tomorrow, it’s the other way round. It’ll cost entry level jobs. We have reports on how it leads to deskilling. There’s a good chance it’ll make people more stupid. And on average they already got a 30sec attention span thanks to AI’s online predecessors.
And once we adopt it without “fear”, you’ll get schoolbooks with the information/propaganda the ministry of education prompted for.
It’ll also intensify all the biases and stereotypes out there. If you’re gay or black and the AI has been trained on white straight men’s information… Tough luck. It won’t work for you. I already got this, and I’m not even any of that. Called some shitty AI customer service and twice I had some non-standard issues. It’s never of any help with those. It’s good and efficient at handling the standard customer service case. But once you’re the outlier… There’s no training material and no proper procedure in the harness and you’re basically screwed. I think that’s kinda fascist to demand all people are some homogeneous flock of sheep, and the company never makes mistakes while selling something, otherwise consumers (inadvertandly?) get thrown overboard.
We can also see how it’s a burden on my favourite Free Software projects and independent internet infrastructure. We get hammered by the scrapers, bot armies, everyone gets drowned in pull requests and exploits. While Microsoft and Facebook get to make a profit. They also get to release a new Windows version with a botched German translation. But I don’t think I see a lot of yield for the Free Software community. I’ve tried a few AI-assisted and vibe-coded projects. And they’re mostly shit. And/or discontinued after a week. Counterexamples do exist, but they’re really far and in between. While I and my peer group, we’re still at the receiving end of all the harm caused.
The printing press is way more egalitarian. It doesn’t favour printing the bible over any other book. Heck, you can even print radical new ideas. AI will try to push you towards the old stuff it’s seen in the training material due to the way it works. And whatever the tech oligarchs deem acceptable. (And that’s another factor, the printing press isn’t controlled by the Chinese government, nor the corrupt US tech bros.)
I really don’t think it’s a neutral tool. It’s the opposite of that. And many tools aren’t neutral. For example guns. Some countries hand them out like there’s no tomorrow. Issue is, they’re force intensifiers and disproportionately used by criminals, mentally ill people… people with a will to use them for what they’re good at, accidents happen… You can have a look at the numbers and compare it to other countried where the citizens are more fearful of guns. Those put strict regulation on top and get 10x less crime in return. And an ungodly amount less gun violence. That’s because the world isn’t neutral towards small metal barrels which fire projectiles. You’d think they’re just a device. But it’s way more complicated than that once we factor in reality.
But yeah, you’re right. Issue isn’t the maths… It’s the fascists being in control of it. We need to get rid of those. After that we can try to come up with some hypothetical, better version of AI. One that comes with equity, a level playing field. Something which doesn’t reinforce stereotypes. Doesn’t steal from poor people and return investment to the rich and powerful. It’s a massive challenge, and completely science fiction unless we do the first step.
Idk, maybe I’m just more subscribed to realism. I’m not opposed to the existence of the concept of mathematics. But I’ll judge a tool by what it’s actually used for. Not what could happen if the world were a different one than the one we live in.
I’m flattered you think I have the money for that, but I really don’t. People do all kinds of silly stuff as a hobby. But even engineering an airplane in my garage is more achievable than this. And then they bought up all the computer chips and GPUs to make it even more unaffordable. And the way law works, I’ll go to jail after pirating 20 books. It’s just the tech oligarchy who’s allowed to steal. That’s another level of associated fascism. We don’t get equity. There’s different rules for different people.
For Zuck et al it’s alright to torrent porn, pirate all the Hollywood movies out there, music… Musk can keep his revenge porn service… But @hendrik: Straight to jail if they try.
tools shape our perception of the world, and in turn us. neutrality is tacit approval. when a fascist company develops a technology, and some people say “we don’t want technology developed by fascists”, the “compromise” position is “you could have some technology developed by fascists”
if you look into operation paperclip and all the politics following that, you’ll see that there was a ton of pushback. the german scientists were literal nazis, but in the worst way; they were the compromising kind. only that the compromise was between “kill people” and “don’t kill people”, so the result was “kill some people”. and living in that environment changes your perception of the world. as the song goes, “once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down? that’s not my department” says wehrner von braun
Honestly “just a tool” is the same as “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. The phrase frames the context as if EVERY tool can have plenty of reasonable non-destructive purposes.
One argument is that those who make LLMs have a high amount of control their output. It’s giving a lot of control of open source to the whims of those companies to become reliant on LLMs
Think about the potential for providers to add plausibly deniable backdoors, general lower quality code, etc. when they think you are working on a project they care about. The precedent is there with Anthropic publicly stating that Fable was built to intentional sabotage quality when they think you are working on AI research related tasks or distillation. That kind of stuff can be subtly baked into open models as well
i understand there are a lot of facist AI companies, but how can an entire technology be facist?
That’s like saying space travel is facist because pretty much all of it was built on work by literal nazi scientists.
Do we throw out all the related advances too? Satellite communications, GPS, etc.?
Honestly it feels like I’m taking crazy pills some days. I run local models on my system, and the technology is legitimately fascinating. I am not talking about the broligarchy, merely the underlying technology is weird and fun to play with.
One thing is for certain - the box Pandora had this thing lying around in has been kicked open, and it cannot be shut. We’ll just have to figure out what that means for all of us.
Good question. I think there’s some truth to it. Somehow a lot of fascist people love AI. For example a certain president posts a lot of gen AI pictures, sometimes videos of himself dropping poo on the citizens. Other regimes just use it to manifest some video surveillance dystopia. And to be frank, there is no other tech to enable surveillance on that level.
It’s also a good tool to manipulate people on a grand scale, make custom propaganda, exploit psychology…
LLMs and related systems are made in a completely top-down way. They’re under control of the Chinese government and a few select US tech oligarchs like Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman and their companies. They get to shape it. And they’re kind of Anti-Robin-Hoods. They steal from the poor, the workers and artists, and give to the rich. They get more power and money. And I didn’t yet mention Peter Thiel and some other companies who are working on some AI assisted version of doomsday, or at minimum some scifi dystopia with predictive policing and that kind of stuff.
Also comes with a few fascist side-effects. Like disposession of land, polluting the environment and poor people get to suffer the consequences of climate change. Rich people can just buy a new house and clean water…
I mean not all AI is fascist. But I see lots of reason to believe it aligns well with fascist wet dreams. And not so much with their opponents’.
On contrary: Space travel helps all of us. I get to learn new science things. Get to use my sat nav in the car… 400 TV channels… a more precise weather forecast… We needed to advance material science for space travel, push solar cell technology, which I can make use of as of today to break free from big oil… I also got to contribute some taxpayer money to make it happen, so it wasn’t just forced upon me by oligarchs…
The printing press has been a crucial tool for fascist propagandists ever since its inception. Does that make the technology fascist?
I just got done reading The Demon Haunted World, and can’t help but draw a comparison. It’s perfectly reasonable to be afraid for the future of democracy right now, but it really feels like people think AI is powered by literal sprites, dancing around on puppet strings at the whim of the fascists who summoned them. It’s math. Math isn’t ideological. It is simply a fact of the universe that an LLM is possible.
Yeah, we have to make sure it is applied responsibly, because yeah it’s a very powerful phenomenon. Yes, they were made using stolen information, and I fully believe that all LLMs and training data should be fully open sourced for public use as a result, and making any profit from them is unethical. It’s stealing from Peter and Paul to sell to Peter and Paul.
But one day fascists are bound to fail, and you know what will still exist in the world that comes next? AI/LLMs/some future iteration of a transformer-based neural network. It’s not the first technology loved and/or invented by fascists, and it won’t be the last. But I think in a panic, people are willing to burn down anything in an 50ft radius of any fascist. Keep the knowledge, ditch the fascism, stop acting out of fear.
I really think those are two different pairs of shoes. The printing press allowed people to make information more accessible to the masses. A lot of people got more educated because of it. Of course as a tool it can also be used for evil. But in reality that’s not what happened. It’s mainly been used for good. It displaced some jobs, but that wasn’t the people’s jobs, but monks in the scriptorium. Other people got to learn to read and write because of it. In fact we went from being able to read as something special, to almost everyone gets to learn to read because of it.
With AI on the other hand (or foot, to stick with the ‘pairs of shoes’ metaphor) it’s gonna be your job and the monks/aristocrats get their scriptorium back to cook up the information of tomorrow, it’s the other way round. It’ll cost entry level jobs. We have reports on how it leads to deskilling. There’s a good chance it’ll make people more stupid. And on average they already got a 30sec attention span thanks to AI’s online predecessors.
And once we adopt it without “fear”, you’ll get schoolbooks with the information/propaganda the ministry of education prompted for.
It’ll also intensify all the biases and stereotypes out there. If you’re gay or black and the AI has been trained on white straight men’s information… Tough luck. It won’t work for you. I already got this, and I’m not even any of that. Called some shitty AI customer service and twice I had some non-standard issues. It’s never of any help with those. It’s good and efficient at handling the standard customer service case. But once you’re the outlier… There’s no training material and no proper procedure in the harness and you’re basically screwed. I think that’s kinda fascist to demand all people are some homogeneous flock of sheep, and the company never makes mistakes while selling something, otherwise consumers (inadvertandly?) get thrown overboard.
We can also see how it’s a burden on my favourite Free Software projects and independent internet infrastructure. We get hammered by the scrapers, bot armies, everyone gets drowned in pull requests and exploits. While Microsoft and Facebook get to make a profit. They also get to release a new Windows version with a botched German translation. But I don’t think I see a lot of yield for the Free Software community. I’ve tried a few AI-assisted and vibe-coded projects. And they’re mostly shit. And/or discontinued after a week. Counterexamples do exist, but they’re really far and in between. While I and my peer group, we’re still at the receiving end of all the harm caused.
The printing press is way more egalitarian. It doesn’t favour printing the bible over any other book. Heck, you can even print radical new ideas. AI will try to push you towards the old stuff it’s seen in the training material due to the way it works. And whatever the tech oligarchs deem acceptable. (And that’s another factor, the printing press isn’t controlled by the Chinese government, nor the corrupt US tech bros.)
I really don’t think it’s a neutral tool. It’s the opposite of that. And many tools aren’t neutral. For example guns. Some countries hand them out like there’s no tomorrow. Issue is, they’re force intensifiers and disproportionately used by criminals, mentally ill people… people with a will to use them for what they’re good at, accidents happen… You can have a look at the numbers and compare it to other countried where the citizens are more fearful of guns. Those put strict regulation on top and get 10x less crime in return. And an ungodly amount less gun violence. That’s because the world isn’t neutral towards small metal barrels which fire projectiles. You’d think they’re just a device. But it’s way more complicated than that once we factor in reality.
But yeah, you’re right. Issue isn’t the maths… It’s the fascists being in control of it. We need to get rid of those. After that we can try to come up with some hypothetical, better version of AI. One that comes with equity, a level playing field. Something which doesn’t reinforce stereotypes. Doesn’t steal from poor people and return investment to the rich and powerful. It’s a massive challenge, and completely science fiction unless we do the first step.
Idk, maybe I’m just more subscribed to realism. I’m not opposed to the existence of the concept of mathematics. But I’ll judge a tool by what it’s actually used for. Not what could happen if the world were a different one than the one we live in.
You can train a model. Today.
Sure, because what we need is more environmental destruction.
I’m flattered you think I have the money for that, but I really don’t. People do all kinds of silly stuff as a hobby. But even engineering an airplane in my garage is more achievable than this. And then they bought up all the computer chips and GPUs to make it even more unaffordable. And the way law works, I’ll go to jail after pirating 20 books. It’s just the tech oligarchy who’s allowed to steal. That’s another level of associated fascism. We don’t get equity. There’s different rules for different people.
For Zuck et al it’s alright to torrent porn, pirate all the Hollywood movies out there, music… Musk can keep his revenge porn service… But @hendrik: Straight to jail if they try.
You got a spare $80 million laying around to train one?
Search up on TESCREAL!
Why would I of you’re not even impressed or shocked or whatever by it to tell us what it is or why we would want to
tools shape our perception of the world, and in turn us. neutrality is tacit approval. when a fascist company develops a technology, and some people say “we don’t want technology developed by fascists”, the “compromise” position is “you could have some technology developed by fascists”
if you look into operation paperclip and all the politics following that, you’ll see that there was a ton of pushback. the german scientists were literal nazis, but in the worst way; they were the compromising kind. only that the compromise was between “kill people” and “don’t kill people”, so the result was “kill some people”. and living in that environment changes your perception of the world. as the song goes, “once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down? that’s not my department” says wehrner von braun
“The essence of technology is by no means anything technological.”
Over the past 5 years or so, I have really come to despise the phrase “just a tool”.
Honestly “just a tool” is the same as “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. The phrase frames the context as if EVERY tool can have plenty of reasonable non-destructive purposes.
One argument is that those who make LLMs have a high amount of control their output. It’s giving a lot of control of open source to the whims of those companies to become reliant on LLMs
Think about the potential for providers to add plausibly deniable backdoors, general lower quality code, etc. when they think you are working on a project they care about. The precedent is there with Anthropic publicly stating that Fable was built to intentional sabotage quality when they think you are working on AI research related tasks or distillation. That kind of stuff can be subtly baked into open models as well
Tell us more. Your ideas sound unique.
Go fuck yourself with your tired, “bUt WhAt aBoUt VaCciNeS,” argument.