I looked into making yet another account, this time on piefed, but didn’t like the automatic blocking of a few communities. Yeah, I’m a massive hypocrite because I argued hard for the defederation of maga.place from sh.itjust.works, but since coming to lemmy.today I don’t like the idea of automatic defederation where the users don’t have input.
Are there any piefed instances that don’t block anything? Or, is there a way for me to befriend everyone on my account?
What if I want to get to know the good people of cum.salon, or yggdrasil…
spoiler
No LGBTQ. Period. No homosexuality. No men who think they’re women or women who think they’re men. No made up genders. That goes for both users and posted content. For the record, traps are gay and will not be tolerated.
In general, if it’s something that would have gotten you in trouble a hundred years ago, you shouldn’t be posting it. If you have to ask, don’t post it.
In year 1925 you could already get into big trouble in some western countries if you talked too positively about Jewish people. Should people not post anything positive about Jewish people on that instance? Or is it okay until year 2032?
Also, I’ve understood that in year 1925 you could get into trouble if you talked strongly against vaccinations. Do they forbid anti-vaxxer posts on Yggdrasil?
This feels like karma. I’m alright with rule-breaking stuff getting deleted and people getting banned for bad behavior, but I don’t think people should be flagged for consistently going against the popular narrative. If they’re being assholes users can report them.
Note how that link points to PieFed.social. Yes, those are defederated at the instance level, so a user cannot work around that - Lemmy defederation works the same way. However, PieFed.zip is a separate instance from PieFed.socual, and does not defederate from much at all.
Low Reputation Indicator
I find that feature very helpful. It’s merely a visual indicator placed next to the username, which is very different than the software making decisions for me on what content to show or not, and that indicator helps clue me in that responding to e.g. an argumentative person is unlikely to enhance my day. Also while I don’t recall the details on how it is set, imagine if you will that someone receives 10x more downvotes total than upvotes. Such an account is usually a troll. Most people get downvotes occasionally, but that would not trigger the indicator to be shown (and again, even if it somehow did, it’s just a visual icon, not a block or anything).
Lemmy is FAR more known for authoritative censorship than PieFed. Particularly those instances mentioned like hexbear and the infamous lemmy.ml where you cannot criticize Russia, China, or North Korea without being banned from every community on the entire instance including those you’ve never even heard of.
The link doesn’t point to the instance, that’s the main blog/info site for piefed.
Either way my question about blocking was answered, now I know the block list isn’t baked into piefed itself.
I don’t agree with the low rep feature. There are rules, reporting and blocking available moderate communities. If one user doesn’t want to interact with another for non-rulebreaking reasons, they can block them, tag them, or just not respond. This just opens up new reasons to manipulate votes and downvote unpopular opinions.
I’m on Lemmy.Today, so I disagree that it’s authoritative. This instance doesn’t block/isn’t blocked by any instance, and allows all opinions that aren’t bigoted or insulting. There’s a whole spectrum of vibes across the instances but there’s nothing authoritative about the Lemmy ground rules.
The only way to approach “talking with everyone” on the fediverse is to host your own instance - only even then you’ll probably need to defederate ASAP from any instances that send you illegal material (as in child sexual abuse material).
I doubt that a normal user would get themselves flagged with the low rep icon though. Even receiving twice as many, triple as many, quadruple or quintuple as many downvotes as upvotes would not do it. To receive ten times as many downvotes as upvotes is someone who is entirely ignoring the consent of users to have to read their crap ahem “offered opinions”. That is Reddit-level hostility there, and something that your average conscientious Threadiverse participant will never experience - except unfortunately on the receiving end, as some very few people seem to take great pleasure in absolutely flaunting the rules in every community that they visit.
It would also take a MASSIVE vote-altering campaign to counteract that effect. Something which if only due to its sheer scale might be noticed. And at that point it would be easier to create a new Lemmy account - some instances require nothing to make that happen - or even spin up a new instance in order to skirt the effects of downvoting.
In short, reputation is a part of the normal human set of interactions. PieFed acknowledges that and exceedingly gently places an icon next to the usernames of the most egregious offenders. I for one do not think that is a bad thing, even on purely theoretical grounds. We aren’t trying to recreate a new 4chan here (we already have Hexbear for that - seriously! 😐)
Skavau already covered the point about lemmy.ml being authoritative whereas Lemmy.today is not (in general there are 4 well-known tankie authoritarian instances and Lemmy.today is not one of those:-).
You can make an alt on some other instance that is federated with piefed.social and ask again with that one! :)
It’s anyway useful to have alts.
🐳
(Just search for Tuuktuuk… I might have slightly been searching for the optimal instance for my use 🤣
…but then again, I have actually had actual occassinal need for four of my alts! The other PieFed one when this one has been down, the Lemmy one for seeing how things look when viewed from Lemmy, Mastodon for viewing microblog posts, Friendica for writing longer microblog posts and boosting them with my main Mastodon account, mbin is sometimes useful when I want to share posts and comments between Mastodon and PieFed/Lemmy.)
Lemmy is FAR more known for authoritative censorship than PieFed.
I’m aware of the weirder instances. I was saying Lemmy itself isn’t authoritative.
I’m not opposed to the reputation thing because I think manipulation will end in false positives, but because there are better systems to moderate users than popularity. Without knowing the details of it, seems like a straight ratio would disproportionately affect people who don’t post as often. Some people have like 30 comments over a year, most with two or three votes. At that point it just takes one or two really unpopular opinions to shift that ratio drastically. But I donno, maybe there’s a threshold.
Even so, right now I don’t mind leaving my more unpopular comments up because the fruitcake of conversation is better with a few odd chunks, and it doesn’t affect anything. The threat of a reputation label, no matter how unlikely it is to get one, is an incentive to please the crowd, and I think making votes mean anything was part of the problem with reddit. I don’t want anything to get in the way of a passionate user and their rant, I’m here for the crazy.
Plus, In moderating my community I found a few people who just straight downvote everything. One of the accounts I checked had hundreds of hours of downvoting, like an insane amount of clicking arrows. Tens of thousands of downvotes. I don’t want any kind of system someone like that can influence.
Regardless, I respect your argument and your points are valid. We might have to agree to disagree, and maybe I’ll see you on piefed soon, despite my criticisms.
Originally I meant that the Lemmy ecosystem is generally speaking more authoritarian than the PieFed one. This is in large part due to the preferences of the devs.
I will now also add the new related point that I think the coding design of Lemmy lends itself more to authoritarian control. It seems geared and marketed more towards instance admins, then mods, then users only last. Tbf PieFed is the same way here, but with a different focus due to the preferences of the main designer.
Lemmy is even more authoritarian than Reddit itself in many ways: Reddit at least sends a user a notification whenever their content is removed, plus users (and anyone who commented or otherwise has a direct link) can still see their content even after that. Reddit users may also contact the moderators via mod mail. In contrast, despite how Lemmy has the modlog, again there are no notifications for removal, and the modlog just says that the action was done by a “mod” (it used to always have the username, but now it can just say “mod”, so over time Lemmy has actually moved in the direction to become MORE authoritarian than it used to be, not less).
To be fair, PieFed also lacks a mod mail or notification upon removal of content, but I feel like for Piefed it is simply because it is new and new features being added monthly, even practically weekly. Whereas for Lemmy it gives an impression at least that it is a design choice that seems unlikely to ever change towards more democratic principles. We will see how they each develop over more time I suppose.
For now, many Lemmy instances are very free and open, subject to the software constraints, while others are extremely closed down, most especially lemmy.ml that the main Lemmy developer seems to spend an inordinate amount of time moderating rather than tweaking the codebase. That’s fine btw, it’s his code and he can do whatever he wants with it, although for me I choose PieFed instead, for all the above reasons and so much more.
Speaking of, none of what you said sounds to me like it should result in someone receiving a visual icon due to poor reputation. I’ve had some massively downvoted content myself, but if the system is implemented properly then it will consider more like a median downvoting rather than maximum or even average. Theoretically someone who only made 10 comments and >=9 of those were downvoted heavily, yeah they would get that icon. However, the icon does not cause filtering of their content (there are other things that can but those are entirely separate and not based on the user account), it’s merely a visual display. I’ve upvoted, downvoted, and replied to people’s comments even when I can see that icon - so it in no way blocks me from doing so or from seeing it in the first place. But it does (helpfully imho) label it, so that I have a better indicator going in what I am getting myself into.
Like I said, I see your side and I don’t agree with it, fundamentally. I only gave one hypothetical, btw, the rest was on the unreliability of votes as a metric. And I just don’t see the point on an open forum where anyone can respond at any time. Plus, there are reasons and recourse for mod actions, but no one has to justify a downvote.
Lemmy isn’t my tribe and Piefed isn’t my enemy, I’ll probably end up using both, or whatever ends up working better for me. The point of decentralization is having places like .today, .blahaj, .ml and .hexbear all doing governance however the hell they want, and being able to freely choose between them. An authoritarian platform would be obligatory, not federated with the competition, non-transparent, and centralize power to one or a few individuals. I don’t even think it’s possible for .ml to be authoritarian because participation is a choice.
However, I can see which mods performed what action and from what community, granted I use the web apps with more features. But I agree, not getting a notification should for sure be fixed and mod mail for big communities would be cool, and I wish there was a way to see deleted content, but the mod actions definitely aren’t a secret and anyone can send them a message about it.
I looked into making yet another account, this time on piefed, but didn’t like the automatic blocking of a few communities. Yeah, I’m a massive hypocrite because I argued hard for the defederation of maga.place from sh.itjust.works, but since coming to lemmy.today I don’t like the idea of automatic defederation where the users don’t have input.
Are there any piefed instances that don’t block anything? Or, is there a way for me to befriend everyone on my account?
Check instance federation/block of piefed.zip
https://piefed.zip/instances
What if I want to get to know the good people of cum.salon, or yggdrasil…
spoiler
I stand 100% corrected.
Thank you.
There’s something so funny to me about just super blatant bigotry. Because this sounds unhinged to anyone with even a shred of decency.
Immediately followed by a rule against ‘miscegenation’. That’s one to add to our list…
Whoa. I had to look it up. I’m guessing these dudes really strongly don’t wanna see a black dude make love to a white woman or visa versa.
Yeah, anyone using it raises enough red flags to make a Chinese military parade blush.
This is also impressive:
In year 1925 you could already get into big trouble in some western countries if you talked too positively about Jewish people. Should people not post anything positive about Jewish people on that instance? Or is it okay until year 2032? Also, I’ve understood that in year 1925 you could get into trouble if you talked strongly against vaccinations. Do they forbid anti-vaxxer posts on Yggdrasil?
Maybe I’m being picky but I see no reasons for defederation listed on that page. It’d be helpful information to have
piefed.zip is likely the one that doesn’t block anything if it is modelled after lemmy.zip here.
Disclaimer: I checked into piefed shit again and this unexpectedly turned into a whole thing.
I found this here https://join.piefed.social/features/ :
Does that mean they can’t be unblocked? And now I’m seeing:
That gave me pause, not because I want to promote authoritarian propaganda, but I’m concerned about someone else deciding what’s authoritarian.
And:
This feels like karma. I’m alright with rule-breaking stuff getting deleted and people getting banned for bad behavior, but I don’t think people should be flagged for consistently going against the popular narrative. If they’re being assholes users can report them.
They can be unblocked. They’re just blocked by default.
These are all tools that can be modified by server admins.
Fair enough. Thanks for the info!
Note how that link points to PieFed.social. Yes, those are defederated at the instance level, so a user cannot work around that - Lemmy defederation works the same way. However, PieFed.zip is a separate instance from PieFed.socual, and does not defederate from much at all.
I find that feature very helpful. It’s merely a visual indicator placed next to the username, which is very different than the software making decisions for me on what content to show or not, and that indicator helps clue me in that responding to e.g. an argumentative person is unlikely to enhance my day. Also while I don’t recall the details on how it is set, imagine if you will that someone receives 10x more downvotes total than upvotes. Such an account is usually a troll. Most people get downvotes occasionally, but that would not trigger the indicator to be shown (and again, even if it somehow did, it’s just a visual icon, not a block or anything).
Lemmy is FAR more known for authoritative censorship than PieFed. Particularly those instances mentioned like hexbear and the infamous lemmy.ml where you cannot criticize Russia, China, or North Korea without being banned from every community on the entire instance including those you’ve never even heard of.
The link doesn’t point to the instance, that’s the main blog/info site for piefed.
Either way my question about blocking was answered, now I know the block list isn’t baked into piefed itself.
I don’t agree with the low rep feature. There are rules, reporting and blocking available moderate communities. If one user doesn’t want to interact with another for non-rulebreaking reasons, they can block them, tag them, or just not respond. This just opens up new reasons to manipulate votes and downvote unpopular opinions.
I’m on Lemmy.Today, so I disagree that it’s authoritative. This instance doesn’t block/isn’t blocked by any instance, and allows all opinions that aren’t bigoted or insulting. There’s a whole spectrum of vibes across the instances but there’s nothing authoritative about the Lemmy ground rules.
For what it’s worth, fedia.io does not federate with lemmy.today: https://fedia.io/federation
The only way to approach “talking with everyone” on the fediverse is to host your own instance - only even then you’ll probably need to defederate ASAP from any instances that send you illegal material (as in child sexual abuse material).
What!? I’m going to send them a letter.
Yeah, I think OpenStars means the ruleset in lemmy.ml which is the equivalent instance to lemmy as piefed.social is to piefed.
However hypothetically authoritarian piefed.social might become, it doesn’t reflect on the piefed software itself necessarily.
I doubt that a normal user would get themselves flagged with the low rep icon though. Even receiving twice as many, triple as many, quadruple or quintuple as many downvotes as upvotes would not do it. To receive ten times as many downvotes as upvotes is someone who is entirely ignoring the consent of users to have to read their
crapahem “offered opinions”. That is Reddit-level hostility there, and something that your average conscientious Threadiverse participant will never experience - except unfortunately on the receiving end, as some very few people seem to take great pleasure in absolutely flaunting the rules in every community that they visit.It would also take a MASSIVE vote-altering campaign to counteract that effect. Something which if only due to its sheer scale might be noticed. And at that point it would be easier to create a new Lemmy account - some instances require nothing to make that happen - or even spin up a new instance in order to skirt the effects of downvoting.
In short, reputation is a part of the normal human set of interactions. PieFed acknowledges that and exceedingly gently places an icon next to the usernames of the most egregious offenders. I for one do not think that is a bad thing, even on purely theoretical grounds. We aren’t trying to recreate a new 4chan here (we already have Hexbear for that - seriously! 😐)
Skavau already covered the point about lemmy.ml being authoritative whereas Lemmy.today is not (in general there are 4 well-known tankie authoritarian instances and Lemmy.today is not one of those:-).
Which one is 4th?
the ever-expanding definition of “tankie” strikes again!
Midwest.social - the admin Seahorse famously banning people for downvoting them. Yeah definitely less well-known than the usual 3.
That was a one time occurrence, the admin apologized, reverted the decision, and I haven’t heard of any similar incident since then.
'grad, .ml, and hexbear. What’s the fourth?
… Surely not db0?
Edit: Apparently, this comment never showed up on piefed.social, so I’ll probably never get a reply.
I see it from Piefed.zip
Good thing I’m friends with everyone. Maybe the maga instance? I’ve heard people call beehaw and blahaj authoritarian, strangely.
You can make an alt on some other instance that is federated with piefed.social and ask again with that one! :)
It’s anyway useful to have alts.
🐳
(Just search for Tuuktuuk… I might have slightly been searching for the optimal instance for my use 🤣
…but then again, I have actually had actual occassinal need for four of my alts! The other PieFed one when this one has been down, the Lemmy one for seeing how things look when viewed from Lemmy, Mastodon for viewing microblog posts, Friendica for writing longer microblog posts and boosting them with my main Mastodon account, mbin is sometimes useful when I want to share posts and comments between Mastodon and PieFed/Lemmy.)
Lemmy.ml is federated with piefed.social, Diva’s comments can be seen: https://piefed.social/post/1533603#comment_9110585
So I don’t know why my comment can’t be, I’m not banned on there as far as I can see.
Also this is my “federation” alt.
Edit: My other comment in this post shows up: https://piefed.social/u/[email protected]
I was responding to this comment:
I’m aware of the weirder instances. I was saying Lemmy itself isn’t authoritative.
I’m not opposed to the reputation thing because I think manipulation will end in false positives, but because there are better systems to moderate users than popularity. Without knowing the details of it, seems like a straight ratio would disproportionately affect people who don’t post as often. Some people have like 30 comments over a year, most with two or three votes. At that point it just takes one or two really unpopular opinions to shift that ratio drastically. But I donno, maybe there’s a threshold.
Even so, right now I don’t mind leaving my more unpopular comments up because the fruitcake of conversation is better with a few odd chunks, and it doesn’t affect anything. The threat of a reputation label, no matter how unlikely it is to get one, is an incentive to please the crowd, and I think making votes mean anything was part of the problem with reddit. I don’t want anything to get in the way of a passionate user and their rant, I’m here for the crazy.
Plus, In moderating my community I found a few people who just straight downvote everything. One of the accounts I checked had hundreds of hours of downvoting, like an insane amount of clicking arrows. Tens of thousands of downvotes. I don’t want any kind of system someone like that can influence.
Regardless, I respect your argument and your points are valid. We might have to agree to disagree, and maybe I’ll see you on piefed soon, despite my criticisms.
Originally I meant that the Lemmy ecosystem is generally speaking more authoritarian than the PieFed one. This is in large part due to the preferences of the devs.
I will now also add the new related point that I think the coding design of Lemmy lends itself more to authoritarian control. It seems geared and marketed more towards instance admins, then mods, then users only last. Tbf PieFed is the same way here, but with a different focus due to the preferences of the main designer.
Lemmy is even more authoritarian than Reddit itself in many ways: Reddit at least sends a user a notification whenever their content is removed, plus users (and anyone who commented or otherwise has a direct link) can still see their content even after that. Reddit users may also contact the moderators via mod mail. In contrast, despite how Lemmy has the modlog, again there are no notifications for removal, and the modlog just says that the action was done by a “mod” (it used to always have the username, but now it can just say “mod”, so over time Lemmy has actually moved in the direction to become MORE authoritarian than it used to be, not less).
To be fair, PieFed also lacks a mod mail or notification upon removal of content, but I feel like for Piefed it is simply because it is new and new features being added monthly, even practically weekly. Whereas for Lemmy it gives an impression at least that it is a design choice that seems unlikely to ever change towards more democratic principles. We will see how they each develop over more time I suppose.
For now, many Lemmy instances are very free and open, subject to the software constraints, while others are extremely closed down, most especially lemmy.ml that the main Lemmy developer seems to spend an inordinate amount of time moderating rather than tweaking the codebase. That’s fine btw, it’s his code and he can do whatever he wants with it, although for me I choose PieFed instead, for all the above reasons and so much more.
Speaking of, none of what you said sounds to me like it should result in someone receiving a visual icon due to poor reputation. I’ve had some massively downvoted content myself, but if the system is implemented properly then it will consider more like a median downvoting rather than maximum or even average. Theoretically someone who only made 10 comments and >=9 of those were downvoted heavily, yeah they would get that icon. However, the icon does not cause filtering of their content (there are other things that can but those are entirely separate and not based on the user account), it’s merely a visual display. I’ve upvoted, downvoted, and replied to people’s comments even when I can see that icon - so it in no way blocks me from doing so or from seeing it in the first place. But it does (helpfully imho) label it, so that I have a better indicator going in what I am getting myself into.
Like I said, I see your side and I don’t agree with it, fundamentally. I only gave one hypothetical, btw, the rest was on the unreliability of votes as a metric. And I just don’t see the point on an open forum where anyone can respond at any time. Plus, there are reasons and recourse for mod actions, but no one has to justify a downvote.
Lemmy isn’t my tribe and Piefed isn’t my enemy, I’ll probably end up using both, or whatever ends up working better for me. The point of decentralization is having places like .today, .blahaj, .ml and .hexbear all doing governance however the hell they want, and being able to freely choose between them. An authoritarian platform would be obligatory, not federated with the competition, non-transparent, and centralize power to one or a few individuals. I don’t even think it’s possible for .ml to be authoritarian because participation is a choice.
However, I can see which mods performed what action and from what community, granted I use the web apps with more features. But I agree, not getting a notification should for sure be fixed and mod mail for big communities would be cool, and I wish there was a way to see deleted content, but the mod actions definitely aren’t a secret and anyone can send them a message about it.
That’s just the anti-propaganda links on the side.
Correct, and an admin can even disable those if they want to run a propaganda piefed instance for whatever reason.
Piefed.zip