Absolutely. Of course the world isn’t black and white, it’s not divided into good guys and bad guys, and there’s degrees to things. If micronesia decides to become highly imperialist, all of a sudden, I’m not going to care as much. If, all of a sudden, China starts invading a bunch of its neighbors, then that’s a huge deal to me!
If one country is responsible for 12 million deaths abroad in its imperial dealings in the past decades, and it has invaded and bombed more countries than I care to list here (I’m not sure if lemmy has a character limit, and spelling all this out is less effort and fewer characters than the actual list of countries), then I’m going to care about that country a whole bunch more than I’m going to care about a country that’s invaded two countries and whose death count abroad doesn’t even hit 7 digits.
Anyway my point is pick your battles, and focussing on China over America is really missing the mark. If you go by the actual numbers on imperialism, you are focussing on a country that is literal orders of magnitudes less bad. Complete waste of time.
Let’s face it, Russian propaganda is a symptom. Trump style Republicans are the cause (Russia spends big on opportunities they provide).
…and one could argue establishment Democrat complicity is what enabled Trump style hard right populism.
The world isn’t America. Your current crop of republicans are only a symptom of the global push of the alt-right.
Why not loathe the existence of every nation state on earth? The worst religion is nationalism, and there is stuff competition.
They’re after my stuff?!
ML discovers anarchism.
Spending time on Chinese social media has shown me platforms that read exactly like the garbage from the right wing talking heads here on Twitter. Extreme nationalist sentiment is very, very, common. I have seen soooo many memes expressing desire to just wipe out the Philippines, and just repopulate it with mainland Chinese. Memes about their eventual control over Africa, which uses surprisingly western racist stereotypes to portray Africans. So much discussion that mirrors MAGA like behavior, in many ways, but just discussing the greatness of China, instead. So many who, at least claim, to wholeheartedly believe revisionist, extremely idealized, versions of China’s past, often including things that just are not physically possible. There is a lot of open talk about what China is going to do to so many of it’s neighbors when it over takes the US, and NATO recedes from the region. I stopped going on their, because it was just becoming more, and more, X-China. Then my translator stopped using social media there, expect for work, as well, and now I just can’t.
Friends of mine who have spent the past 20+ years living in China are reporting seeing more, and more, of it offline too, when politics was not something Chinese would publicly really talk about, especially to foreigners. However, especially in the past 10 years, they said their open expression of xenophobia, hardline nationalist sentiments, desire to take, and punish other countries, has become almost common in certain social spaces there, and it is worrying them. These people moved to China after studying Chinese language, culture, and history, for many years, including attending Chinese universities. They loved it there. Now they are talking about how it is sounding more, and more, like the rhetoric you get from flag wavers in the US.
So I do not trust China to maintain it’s non-expansionism once NATO not longer controls so many of the waters around them. Nationalism is popular their, and the idea of finally taking revenge for the century of humiliation only grows.
I think most anarchists do exactly that. The obvious tension is that marxists want to replace one state with another, whereas anarchists would prefer not to swap one yoke for another.
I do!
“We can talk about socialized healthcare and the evils of capitalism all day, but before we go any further I need you to pass this two-factor authentication by criticizing China and Russia.”
“Have you condemned Hamas today?”
This comment is so real it hurts.
I just had someone trying to convince me that Russia can’t be imperialist because they oppose the US, an imperialist nation.
… that’s not the definition of “imperialist,” my dear tankie.
Not sure if linking it so others can laugh/cry is “brigading” worthy of getting me banned off of various Lemmy communities/instances or not.
Fuck it, here’s the thread:
irredentism doesn’t make a country imperialist
I needed a good laugh.
It’s more or less exactly the content of this post here. Literal Russian propaganda, I’m sure. Couldn’t confirm 100% because I don’t waste my precious time checking what Russia has to say about their invasion, but I’m sure the term/topic of “irredentism” comes up and never “invasion” or “genocide.”
Couldn’t confirm 100% because I don’t waste my precious time checking what Russia has to say about their invasion, but I’m sure the term/topic of “irredentism” comes up and never “invasion” or “genocide.”
Irredentism is a negative word, nobody would use it in their own propaganda to describe their own actions. Furthermore, the user you were talking to clearly and explicitly condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine:
i do not support the russian invasion of ukraine btw.
You seem to have misunderstood what they were saying, and the idea that they’re spouting “literal Russian propaganda” while explicitly condemning the invasion, and labelling it an invasion, is completely absurd.
I guess that’s why you felt the need to pretend they didn’t label it as an invasion. I do wish y’all would practice a slightly higher degree of intellectual honesty though.
Never heard the word “irredentism” before, looked it up. It’s literally fascist logic. Do tankies seriously not realize that the logical endpoint of irredentism is a world made up exclusively of ethnostates?
If you actually read what the person was saying, they said:
i do not support the russian invasion of ukraine btw.
that being said, irredentism is still awful. i’m ideologically against all forms of killing, and that includes the russian attack on ukraine. just so we’re clear here, this is just about definitions, i’m not trying to argue that russia attacking its neighbors is good in any way.
Marxists tend to use a specific definition of imperialism, and that user’s position is that while Russia does engage in irredentism (bad), like invading Ukraine, they do not fit the Marxist definition of imperialism (which is more concerned with resource extraction on a global scale). This Marxist definition goes back at least to Lenin, so it isn’t something that they just made up (as they were accused of in the thread), but the common meaning today is different.
This is being misinterpreted or distorted here into, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is fine because it’s irredentism” which was very clearly not what they were saying. What they were saying is that irredentism is bad (including the war in Ukraine), but that it is a distinct thing from imperialism.
but that’s not even what this post is suggesting we do. It’s just recognizing that China and Russia are also imperialist states, so we should be mindfull of where the information we consume comes from, since they’re all shoving propaganda down our throats and pitting us against one another, for their own imperialist intentions.
Bedrock based
“We can talk about socialized healthcare and the evils of capitalism all day, but before we go any further I need you to pass this two-factor recognizing that the US’s military/prison industrial complex has done more harm to the world since WWII than China Russia and Iran.”
This but unironically
Ah yes, let’s complain when people post factual memes about countries that both commit genocide, and are both heavily invested in destabilizing western governments
I take it you’re one of those “free” thinkers too?
How hard is it to recognize that, yes, the US is fucking evil, yes, always has been, but that the exact same goes for Russia and China? Ooohh, what a concept, multiple parties being evil? *brain explodes
I can’t tell if this is directed at me or a hypothetical conversation with a tankie.
I’m 90% sure they’re directing it at a hypothetical tankie.
The concept of having more then two parties does indeed stupify the liberal mind.
For the haters, the limit is one.
Jesus Christ can you at least write like a normal person? Why can’t Americans just admit that their country suck and leave it at that?
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Damn seems like it’s the “tankies” getting removed and not the smug liberals. I wonder what else you’re wrong about.
When people say Russia, do they include their government? Because the Russian government can fuck off alongside any government. I consider myself far left and I refuse to simp for any government or its leaders. Now if we’re talking about the Russian and Chinese working class, I’ll always support them.
I’ll support a government in so far as it does something to help the working class, generally that means I’ve only ever supported a government on one issue and told it to fuck off on the rest. I vote as far left as possible and that means I’ve never actually had a government comprised of people I’ve voted for.
Now if we’re talking about the Russian and Chinese working class, I’ll always support them.
There’s literally one question that I ask Russian people that determines if they are worth the support. Just ask them if Crimea should return to Ukraine. That’s it.
Actually… No, don’t do that if you still want to believe in them.
I think “support the working class” doesn’t have to mean “do whatever they say”. We’re all generally propagandized into oblivion. Like, the US working class has been concerned about immigrants and trans women in sports but it’s not pro-worker to go after those things.
Well of course we should support the international proletariat, even the ones heavily propagandized to the right such as in Russia and the US.
Yeah, this can’t be a partisan thing. That’s just feeding into the same nonsense division governments manufacture. It has to cross those aisles and educate folks on the fact that all working class are in the same battle against the same collective ruling class around the world. We’re seeing authoritarian regimes forming around the world and they are working together. We have to do the same.
When people say Russia, do they include their government?
I would think that would be all they are including. regular russian civilians aren’t out there making a lot of propaganda, it’s all either state owned media or right-wing nationalist influencers. except for the occasional video trying to convince people that pork tongue is actually good.
Hell yeah
When people say [country] it’s their government.
When people say [group of people] it’s that group of people.
So what’s your opinion of the US working class?
Support. We’re the most propagandized country in the world and need to be free of this tyrannical bullshit.
Greatly appreciate you modeling healthier ways of engaging with leftist political ideology, thank you ❤️
I definitely can’t take full credit, but I appreciate this. My mom was a foster system case worker and bestowed her empathetic ways to me. I also admire people like Patrice Lumumba, Fred Hampton, Parenti and a few other folks. I like to assume most working class folks aren’t approaching a debate or idea with malice. Our brains are so inundated with stuff on the daily; we have opportunities to reduce that load and be respectful.
orca is not just friend-shaped but comrade-shaped
What qualifiers are there that we’re the most propagandized country in the world? I’m of the opinion that that’s an incredibly hard thing to truly know and quantify.
The US has the largest military and police force in the world, and has had their hand in a multitude of regime changes, top secret experiments, etc. “Most propagandized in the world” might be a stretch, but the propaganda machine that has been manufacturing consent on this scale for years is easily among the worst of them all. Couple that with being in bed with Israel—another heavily propagandized population.
American exceptionalism, of course
Yeah, I’d accept “we’re heavily propagandized,” but “most in the world” is quite the claim.
No government can wage a war for twelve years against wishes of their own population.
Damn, americans must love expensive insulin
Ok? They might, if they wanted they could have adopted one of the European healthcare models a long time ago.
How do you explain the US wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan?
The US population elected a president who was promising to end the Afghanistan War in 2008. That war ended in 2021. That’s at least 12 years of war against the wishes of the majority.
Good question. For most of those years (goes for both wars) they just straight up lied about how bad things were going. Then there’s the propaganda. Holy hell, so much propaganda. Like not saying you’re wrong by asking that question but there are ways of selling unpopular wars.
Added to this, capitalists fucking LOVE wars. And without breaking capitalism all they’re really going to do about the majority coming out against war is say ‘yeah, what the fuck are you gonna do about it then?’
How do you explain the US wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan?
The Americans were asking for it. Did you see how they were dressed?
I remember smug Americans scolding third worlders for having dictators run their countries, proudly claiming that they themselves were just better, more democratically inclined, which ofc led them to living in democracies. The third worlders just didn’t want democracy hard enough.
Now Trump is president and they just lay down and take it.
History says you are so, so wrong. Indisputably wrong
Am I? In all those long conflicts the population was at first at least indifferent(Like the US in the Vietnam war or USSR in Afghanistan war) or outright supportive(Like the US in their Afghanistan war) and after the public opinion changed the wars quickly ended. On the other hand the tsar was deposed after less than 3 years of WWI.
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Hey bud I don’t actually think you can get any further to the left than anarchism.
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Ironically, calling anarchism “disorganization” is almost always a result of capitalist/authoritarian propaganda about what anarchism is. Sorry you can’t conceive of a world where people organize themselves without the use of oppressive violence.
“Without a hierarchical authority system of a small group ‘directing’ the large group, the people can’t remain organized!” - every supposed “stateless”, “classless” ML.
Incorrect. Anarchism is against unjust hierarchies. It can absolutely be organized.
I still support worker-lead efforts. I just don’t fold to singular figures or authorities. I’ve watched people excuse abhorrent shit simply because it’s a person they otherwise like.
Au contrare, virtually all anarchists are ultra-left.
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That also includes simping Putin and Xi.
Are these Putin and Xi simpers in the room with us right now?
Yes they’re from 3 Lemmy instances, one of them being yours.
It’s so crazy that I’ve never met one then, only people with takes that are nuanced and are based on non-CIA approved sources (although I really think this only applies to Xi, I’ve never seen a single person supporting Putin)
Seriously though, I think you’re pre-emptively blocking out what people are actually arguing just because you perceive it to be russian or chinese or whatever propaganda. Almost everyone I’ve talked to/seen has had reasonable takes that are based on evidence, and a huge part of that is asking why they believe what they do instead of just screaming “TANKIE” at them
You’re either with US, or you’re with the
TerroristsCommunists!Like fr
Funny, bcs I notice pretty much everyone who talks about “Russian Propaganda” uses that to mean “anything that contradicts the US state department and billionaire owned media narrative about US geopolitical adversaries”
You notice people slurping up one propaganda while you’re slurping up another, and think you’re smarter than they are.
“Both sides are the same! I am very smart.”
“… in favor of Russian state departament and oligarch owned media narrative”
ftfy, now fuck off
Any independent thinker should indeed seek to critically understand multiple perspectives, yes. Although even just being able to formulate perspectives of other countries, or being willing to challenge blatant misinformation will get you accused of being an imperialist by left-posturing Western chauvanists.
You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.” I’m guessing people will just be like, “Well what if they invaded Taiwan? The things happening purely in my imagination prove China bad.”
Had me in the first half, ngl.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/territorial-disputes-south-china-sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism and the literal war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Edit: Read up on the Chinese Ethnic Unity Law: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/ethnic-unity-and-progress-law/
Whom will likely benefit the most: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_China
More complicated than what most people think considering the history of Taiwan. Imagine if fascist in your country seized a region via ethnic cleansing and then created a break away state. Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation? The only thing that complicates this is they eventually established a somewhat democratic government, after +40 years of violent authoritarianism.
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
Eh… Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
China is a superpower, you don’t get to that status without flexing that power. The reality is that every superpower in history regardless of what social economic system they utilize has to compete with an established hegemony to upset the status quo. You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
Compared to the leading superpower I’d hardly say their activity in their own backyard really can’t be compared to what the US is currently doing to control a waterway right now.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
I think Han chauvinism has long been an issue within China, even Mao spoke about it during his time in power. Do I think it’s as dire as it’s depicted in western media? No, but I do hope that the CCP takes more steps to integrate ethnic minorities into positions in higher government like the politburo. That being said, is the treatment of ethnic minorities on the same level or worse than in western nations…? Not really, which leads me to believe that ethnic chauvinism isn’t really a problem specific to any government or economic system.
war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Which the CCP openly admits was a misguided mistake, and apparently unlike other superpowers was something they actually learned from.
Read up on the Chinese Ethnic Unity Law
Some exerpts:
Article 4 In advancing the building of the community for the Chinese nation, economic, political, cultural, social and ecological-civilization development shall be coordinated; common prosperity and development for all ethnic groups shall be fully realized; the people of all ethnic groups shall be ensured the ability to jointly act as masters of the country; a shared spiritual home for the Chinese nation shall be built; all-round mutual embeddedness and extensive interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups shall be promoted; an ecological home in which humanity and nature coexist in harmony shall be jointly protected; and the Chinese nation shall be developed into a community with a stronger sense of identity and greater cohesion.
Article 5 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China are equal before the law. All ethnic groups in the People’s Republic of China are equal. Discrimination against or oppression of any ethnic group is prohibited.
Article 6 A sense of community for the Chinese nation is the foundation of ethnic unity. The state shall increase commonality while respecting and accommodating differences, promote mutual support and harmonious coexistence among all ethnic groups, and safeguard the great unity of the Chinese nation. Acts that undermine ethnic unity or create ethnic separatism are prohibited.
Article 8 The state shall uphold and improve the system of regional ethnic autonomy and safeguard national unity and ethnic unity.
Article 9 The state shall govern ethnic affairs in accordance with law, protect the lawful rights and interests of the people of all ethnic groups in accordance with law, strengthen publicity and education concerning the Constitution and laws, enhance the awareness of the state, citizenship and the rule of law among the people of all ethnic groups, safeguard the unity, dignity and authority of the socialist rule of law, and modernize the system and capacity for governance of ethnic affairs within the framework of the rule of law.
Article 15 The state shall comprehensively promote and popularize the standard spoken and written Chinese language. No organization or individual may obstruct citizens from learning or using the standard spoken and written Chinese language. Schools and other educational institutions shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language as the basic language of education and instruction. The state shall promote the learning of Putonghua by preschool children and the basic mastery of the standard spoken and written Chinese language by young people who complete compulsory education. State organs shall use the standard spoken and written Chinese language for official purposes. Where documents are required by relevant laws to be issued in the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority, versions in both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the minority language shall be provided. Where state organs, social organizations, enterprises, public institutions or other social organizations need to use both the standard spoken and written Chinese language and the spoken and written language of an ethnic minority in a public setting, prominence shall be given to the standard spoken and written Chinese language in terms of placement, order and other respects. The state shall respect and protect the learning and use of the spoken and written languages of ethnic minorities, promote their standardization, normalization and digital development, and support the preservation, collation, study and use of ancient books and records in minority languages.
Article 16 Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall carry the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation through the entire education process and incorporate them into an education system combining classroom instruction, social practice, themed education and online education. Schools and other educational institutions of all types and at all levels shall use state-compiled textbooks in accordance with relevant state provisions. Education administrative departments shall implement the requirements for fostering a strong sense of community for the Chinese nation in the preparation and review of teaching materials. The departments of the State Council responsible for education administration, ethnic affairs and related work shall organize the preparation of series of textbooks or readers concerning the community for the Chinese nation.
Article 29 The state shall enhance mutual learning and integration among the cultures of all ethnic groups and encourage all ethnic groups to appreciate one another’s fine traditional cultures and learn one another’s spoken and written languages. People’s governments at all levels shall support cultural workers and relevant entities in creating and presenting literary and artistic works that are grounded in Chinese culture and reflect interaction, exchange and integration among all ethnic groups. People’s governments at all levels shall support libraries, museums, cultural centers and stations, memorial halls, art museums, science and technology museums, workers’ cultural palaces, children’s and youth palaces and other public cultural-service entities in conducting exhibitions and exchange activities concerning the history of the Chinese nation, national prosperity and development, and related subjects. People’s governments at all levels shall draw on the Chinese nation’s rich cultural, sporting and other resources to encourage and support exchange activities, including traditional festivals of the Chinese nation, folk culture events and sporting competitions, that are welcomed and jointly participated in by the people of all ethnic groups.
So scary for our government with mandated representation of minorities to wish to encourage cultural exchange while instituting a common tongue to allow for our social and physical mobility while continuing to encourage the teaching of minority languages and writing systems. 😱
You do realise that documents like that are used to stop discussion, and are pointed to by people saying “look, we HAVE equality so stop making a fuss”.
China has a lot of that, and things like bonus 高考 points for ethnic minorities are an often used rallying cry by the Han suoremists as an example of how things have gone too far (and unlike the coming one, this one is allowed to be broadcast on B站 and other sites and doesn’t get pulled down).
Then you’ve got huge amounts of prejudice against ethnic groups, with negative stereotypes of them as thieves, or violent.
And a two tier policing system, where ethnic minority folks in Yunnan and Guizhou, for example, feel that they can’t hunt or forage in traditional styles because it’s in violation of the law, but Han people in the same towns do it (and you can see/find them flogging poached wildlife in the town market) without a care.Meanwhile the “economic development” of ethnic tourism primarily leads to people from 东北 moving in and buying up land and making the profits, while local Han get middle management positions, and the ethnic minority folks get to be the side show, singers, or worst I’ve seen - dancing girls who are chastised for trying to get the Han 叔叔 to leave them alone.
But they’re an oppressive evil dictatorship, why would they need to save face? Maybe just accept that you’ve drunk the Koolaid.
Minor border disputes are not imperialism.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
Projection.
and the literal war with communist Vietnam
Over 40 years ago lol. If the US had been at peace since Vietnam, I’d have very different opinions about it.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/imperialism
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
Bruh can’t even read a dictionary, lmao.
Projection
Lmao, who do you even think I am?
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
Using the Britannica definition of Imperialism is like using the IDF definition of antisemitism. It isn’t actually very persuasive, bcs it gives you away as either a shill for the existing world order or a useful idiot for the same.
Imperialism is the stage of capitalism where finance capital overtakes commodity production. That’s a gross oversimplification, but it’ll do for the level of debate in this thread.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/imperialism.pdf
Neither China nor Russia is an Imperialist power because in neither state has capitalist control over markets led to the rise of finance capital overtaking commodity production as the main basis of the economy.
Using what’s widely respected as one of the most accurate sources available isn’t acceptable so you bust out quotes from Lenin as the reliable source? Lol
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas
That’s still not the same as minor border disputes.
The US is bad too. If you’re going to be anti-imperialist then you need to be against all imperialism and not just the one you were told to hate.
Yes, decades long occupations, minor border clashes, both equally bad and equally requiring staunch opposition. You gonna go full “white lives matter” next? Or can we agree that focusing on the much, much bigger problem should be the priority?
The vitriol toward defending China in this second response, at any cost, gives you away.
“Gives me away” as what? If you’re going to accuse me of something, say it to my face.
I find it incredible funny that I have seen many other people (me included) criticizing their country, all of the countries really… but I have never seen Objection saying a negative word about China. Not even once. On any matter.Edit: I stand corrected. I though Objection to be either a hypocrite, a shill or a bot, or otherwise unable to criticize China. They changed my opinion by showing they are capable of criticising China on issues they find fault with.
I generally don’t go around shit-talking other countries that I don’t live in and have never been to. The only real exceptions being ones that are receiving military aid from my own country, such as Israel, because that makes it relevant to me.
For the record, I have and do criticize China on certain things, such as LGBT rights. But again, that’s pretty irrelevant to any political questions that are actually relevant to me and my life. What am I going to do about problems in China? What levers of power can I or should I assert to address their problems? It kinda seems like I should probably be a little bit more concerned about all the horrible things my own country is doing. Don’t talk shit about a splinter in their eye when there’s a wooden board in your own or something.
If there was a way for me to assert some lever of power against China, it would be through my own government. But that would only be a valid thing to do if my government wasn’t doing worse things, which is why it’s relevant to point out that the US is worse, in spite of the inevitable response of “whataboutism.”
If the discourse around here was upholding China as some utopia that we should all try to emulate in every regard, you would see me criticize it more. But because the discourse is more about how evil every single thing it does is, how every accusation should be believed completely uncritically, how we should support Western governments acting against it, etc, it’s only natural that that’s what you see me pushing back against the most.
For the record, I have and do criticize China on certain things, such as LGBT rights
Your profile motto:
If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they’re lying.
Evidence or GTFO.
China’s modern day homophobia does not come from a place of “The Buddha said this was bad,” rather, it comes from seeing homosexuality as a Western invention, and a symptom of “bourgeois decadence.” Sadly, such brainworms are common in many socialist countries. There is a stereotype many people have that gay people all live in cities and spend all our time partying at nightclubs, because that makes for better TV than the reality does.
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They brigaded you Dagnet. RIP.
Purged like their authoritarian heroes wished for dissidents, downvotes to the back of the head. :,(
Damn, my comment got removed, I wonder who did it, and admin perhaps?
And so they prove my point. Luckily those downvotes are as meaningless as their opinions
I’m so glad nobody cares when the US does “minor border disputes” the way they care about when China does it.
Oh wait…
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And proud of it. Because anyone who thinks critically, acknowledges basic, objective facts about reality, anyone who questions their own government and confronts their own presumptions and prejudices, is a “tankie” to you liberal, imperialist, chauvinists.
At least I don’t have the blood of a million Middle Easterners on my hands like you do.
Holy based
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You can make the argument for Russia but I really don’t understand how China, a country that has been at peace for over 40 years and which is developing an alternative economic sphere such that countries are not forced to accept whatever conditions the West imposes, could possibly be considered “imperialist.”
Any conflict between the US and China in the Pacific Rim is described as “US Imperialism” from the Chinese perspective and “Chinese Imperialism” from the US perspective.
Any claim China makes along its border regions is Imperialism. Any naval actions made by the Chinese military is Imperialism. Any police action inside the recognized territory of China is imperialism. The entire 1.4B person population is routinely described as a Han monoculture.
The national economic plan is at once a failed project, doomed to collapse within the year, and a sinister plot to steal global market share for the most villainous purposes imaginable. China is, at once, the world’s biggest polluter and the perpetuator of a string of environmentalist “hoaxes”. It’s producing commodities, like consumer electronics and cars and steel girders and plastic widgets, too cheaply and quickly. But it’s also dogged by inefficient bureaucracy and COVID restrictions and an inherent cultural disinterest in entrepreneurship, so the country is constantly lacking essentials.
So they need to go out and steal other people’s stuff, whether its Taiwanese semiconductors or Middle Eastern fossil fuels or East African mineral wealth. And the government accomplishes this by tricking idiot liberals into doing business with them, while secretly infiltrating their societies with the most black-handed saboteurs and spies and assassins.
China is ontologically evil. Its politics is so authoritarian that the people don’t even realize they are being oppressed. But also the people DO realize they are oppressed and yearn for freedom. And if you don’t understand all of this to be true, you’re either an idiot or a LLM programmed to ignore the obvious and trick other people just like an Evil Chinese would.
The ways chauvanism can manifest and reassert itself, even when people rational recognize it as a bad thing in the abstract, are so crazy. The internalized indoctrination works like some kind of demon constantly whispering in people’s heads, trying to get them to come back around to “America #1!”
Criticism will either be overly specific, “This is just because of Trump, I miss when we had respectable Republicans like Bush,” or it will be overly general, “Yes, the US is bad, but only in the sense that all governments are bad.” Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
If the American government fails it must either be an exception, or an inherent flaw in all governments, because we’re the smartest, best, most moral and freedom-loving people in the world. Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed, if we failed, it could only be because the task is impossible. That’s how the chauvanists think, and so the conclusion is already determined before a single actual fact is considered.
Anything to avoid the conclusion that the US just fucking sucks.
Even that is overly broad and kinda skitters over what it is that makes US empire a global horror.
Like, “ah bummer man the US sucks” doesn’t do justice to the pile of bloody backpacks at the Minab school attack. It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions. It’s not just a “aw shucks things are bad”. It’s a global campaign of eugenics, driven by a handful of plutocrats who have pegged their collective future on the advent of Computer God.
Impossible that foreigners could succeed where we failed
Unless they’re Norwegian, for some reason. Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”. And only when they build their society on the back of a petro-state.
It feels almost trite to say “The child murder needs to stop”, but so much US policy - foreign and domestic - is about slaughtering children by the millions.
Classic “no way to prevent this” says only nation where this regularly happens. A part of me just wishes that the horrors could be contained to within our borders, but we have to make all of our shit everyone’s problem.
Only the Scandinavians - the whitest of the white Europeans - are allowed to claim anything approaching “Functional Socialism”.
The funniest part about this is how many people will be like, “The best approach is a mixture of socialism and capitalism” which is exactly what China is doing. I’ve tried so many times to get a coherent answer from the “China bad because billionaires” types as to whether the reforms in the 80’s were good or bad. The only response you’ll ever get from most of them is to call you a fascist for asking.
I’m blessed with having long-time friends from various places in the world.
What way are you reading the meme because the government and mainstream media are incredibly hostile towards Russia and China.
I’m not sure how many MAGA people you know but most of them were running defense for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, essentially saying they should just give up and never should’ve been considered for nato. All of that is proven to be Russian propaganda + the election of Trump was helped massively by Russian bots convincing maga voters.
The character depicted at the bottom isn’t the government or mainstream media, it’s the “independent thinker”
The enemy of my enemy isn’t necessarily my friend, they just happen to be aligned with me in that one, single, specific enimity.
It takes a lot more to be somebody one can trust than merely sharing a single dislike.
As I read it, that meme represents people who don’t actually think like this and instead whilst claiming to be skeptics blindly accept whatever they’re told by those who voice dislike of one or two of the same things they do (for example, American Imperialism).
Instead of trusting US imperialism, like a simp, they’re sucking straight from the teat of Russian imperialism instead, like a Chad. Is the meme. How are you reading it?
Maga has been on a IV drip from known Russian assets for a minute
Americans will ingest American Propaganda from an American billionaire backed by American industry in pursuit of American foreign policy and get called “Dupes of an Evil Foreign Insurgency” by their next-door neighbors who have been ingesting slightly different American Propaganda.
You’re right. Putin’s definitely not in bed with multiple us presidents and probably never actually killed anyone. Not the smol ex-KGBean, wtf are you talking about?
Putin’s definitely not in bed with multiple us presidents
Why do I get an earful about Putin every five minutes, but not one word about Robert Mercer or Ann Getty?
FFS, Mohammad bin Salmon and Benjamin Netanyahu have better claim to being “in bed” with the last half-dozen Presidents. We don’t have a line of videos of US presidents bowing in front of a Russian President or abasing themselves in front of Saint Basil’s Cathedral.
Probably because you jumped up to defend the motherland from the really mildest criticism but that’s your life not mine chief.
I’m not really here to shill for any of those wholesome chunguses but Dubya had some amazing stuff to say about the guy if you want to play waddabouts. Or maybe we could just act cool any time someone says something shitty about a government? Maybe it’s not all a psyop some of the time?
¯\_ (ツ) _/¯
Dubya had some amazing stuff to say about the guy if you want to play waddabouts.
Much like Reagan and Saddam Hussein. They were friends until they weren’t
Don’t be so hasty!
We love propaganda from ANY source so long as it gives us that sweet xenophobic dopamine hit!
One of the bigger jokes of the whole “Russian Propaganda!” line has been how much modern Russian Propaganda is coming out of the same far-right white nationalist clearinghouses as the OG American shit. FFS, we’ve had everyone from Steve Bannon to Ross Douthet to Rod Dreher piling into Eastern Europe to saturate their media with the most dumb-baby US-grade bullshit. And then it’s come right back around again, like the distant echo of a particularly wet fart.
What people scream about from back in 2016, or the Tim Poole shit as recently as 2024, is perfectly interchangeable with your standard issue Rush Limbaugh / Ben Shapiro western chauvinism going back to the 1960s.
Social media is today’s mass/mainstream media. Capitalist imperialists own both that and the traditional channels. They decide the message in both. Being hostile “officially” and contradicting that algorithmically is a choice
Bro, I stare at goats for a living; I don’t kill them, I just make them ejaculate. If you don’t get the reference to the movie about how America does counterintelligence like I do for my job I think I do for the aliens, you should watch The Men Who Stare at Goats and become enlightened to the degree of the game being played. Operation Mockingbird was over fifty years ago, people. MKULTRA and Star Gate are the same program.
Russia, China, the US, the EU are imperial entities with imperial interests. None of them and non of their propaganda outlets care about the Ukrainian people.
Given that, it’s perfectly realistic that the US willingly engineered a situation where conflict was inevitable.
If you think the US wanted Ukraine in NATO for the good of the Ukrainian people, you’re delusional.
If you think the US invested millions in pro western „news outlets“ in Ukraine for the good of the Ukrainian peoples, you’re delusional.
Just as delusional as those that think Russia invaded Ukraine to liberate its people.
If you think the US wanted Ukraine in NATO for the good of the Ukrainian people, you’re delusional.
If the Ukrainians had just been included into NATO, the war would have never happened. That’s because the Russians are rational actors and long-term planners, who recognize a long-term disaster of a military conflict when they see one and always play a conservative, largely non-military game when they can.
The Ukrainians, once included into NATO, would immediately become a net asset for the organization thanks to their large and rapidly growing economy. Their top-tier military would add to the common defense. And it wouldn’t be long before they were inducted into the EU, because Western Europeans love Eastern immigrants and transplants crossing into their country en mass.
I think its abundantly clear that including Ukraine into NATO - and eventually the EU - would be a win-win for everyone involved. Even Russia. And the only reason Ukraine wasn’t added to NATO/EU before the war started is… uh… hmm…
Why didn’t Ukraine get admitted before the war started? Anyone remember?
I guess the people running NATO/EU are just stupid.
How are you defining China as imperialist? Does China engage in global politics? Yes. Do they engage with global Capital? Yes. Do they use soft power to achieve nationalist aims in national conflicts? Sometimes. Are they a hegemon? Depends how you define hegemony, but its a fair assessment.
Do they use their military might to spread their influence and national agenda? No. Do they have Military bases in other countries? No (Russia has like 12, USA has like 130). Do they try to expand their territory? They engage in border conflicts and Taiwan is contentious, but mostly no.
Imperialism is using military might to establish economic dominance or neocolonialism, to establish economic monopolies and an imperialists friendly ruling class in a foreign country. Influencing another country can be regarded as hegemony, depending on the definition of hegemony being used, and imperial countries are hegemonic. But hegemony is soft power, imperialism is hard, direct domination. Hegemony is not imperialism.
Looking back over your comment, and realizing you also consider the EU as imperial, I think you’re confusing hegemony, in an IR/sociological context, for imperialism. EU is not imperialist. They are a function of like global capitalism, which is imperialist, but EU is not imperialist.
Do they (China) try to expand their territory?
Well, they quitely took over what, 10% of Bhutan, since 2021 - and noone cares, because noone cares about Bhutan, right? Bhutan didn’t sold those territories, and isn’t even trying to defend them, because how would that work.
And that it is militarily a very good position in case they’d want to expand into India, that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.
I mean yeah, I get it, compare it to the empire of evil and it looks benign. But it isn’t good, just a lesser of two evils.
I mean, that’s a really good example! And I appreciate it. Do you have any more resources about it? The wiki article is a little vague, and it would be interesting to compare with border skirmishes w India.
I’m a little hesitant to frame things as “evil” but I get your point. Its really hard to pin down China international policy, IMO, so having something concrete to review is always helpful.
Only whan Bhutan newspapers output - Kuensel and the other one I forgot the name (paywal https://kuenselonline.com/dz/news/bhutan-china-border-talks).
Bhutan is literally being polite invaded and is doing anything to deescalate and stop, but it is a much weaker party. They tried formal protests in Chinese Embassy in India, they are trying… negotiations (e. g. https://www.mfa.gov.bt/joint-press-release-on-the-25th-round-of-boundary-talks-between-bhutan-and-china/), but they are still being annexed against their will by China - see also https://blogs.soas.ac.uk/china-institute/2024/12/18/the-bhutan-anomaly/
Thanks, I’ll look these over
Other examples , though much less blatant are the ways that the PRC won the Sri Lankan civil war and led to the total massacre of the Tamil Tigers, and the PRC’s ongoing support for the Tatmydaw in Myanmar - pulling lots of levers and helping keep the aircraft bombing rebel population centres going.
You can be an imperialist by supporting other nation’s governments to get your own benefit.
Separate comment because its easier to talk that way:
EU is not imperialist. They are a function of like global capitalism, which is imperialist, but EU is not imperialist.
That sentence does not make sense. Its a shade of green but not green makes no fucking sense.
Here’s my reasoning: Capitalism is global, capitalism is imperialist, the national or transnational character of capitalism is geographically dependent. The EU as an entity does not carry out imperialist activity outside of the national/transnational framing. It engages in trade, legal definition/refinement, regulation. It empowers capitalists within the EU to conduct business on a global stage. The EU does not have a military, it does not operate a military that functions imperialistically. It can serve as an organizing force that unites national capital to coordinate national militaries with the aims of empowering national capital to conduct business globally.
Honestly the more I think through this the harder it is to parse out differences. Most, if not all, EU members are imperialist, but the imperialist part of them is national, not transnational. Honestly I can’t really fault your perspective, and I’d like to develop it more than a “I’m right, you’re wrong” type debate would really allow. I’d be interested in resources that support your position.
I think this depends on whether by EU you mean the actual political leadership body, or the member countries as a general Western-European power/cultural/economic projection project.
The EU itself cannot compel military action by member countries, for instance, so you could argue it is never imperialist. But if all the major EU countries are also in NATO and sign up to help the US invade Iraq and Afghanistan, is it really unfair to criticize the EU as a shared Western-European bloc?
I mean, yeah, after writing my way through it, I can appreciate the perspective. I generally like to be precise, concrete with definitions.
But the more I thought about it, the more I worked through it, I found it interesting that, based on strict definition of the EU, as an entity unto itself with particular functions, it is like you say, it is never imperialist.
But when searching for the contours of it, where an imperialist or historically colonial member nation ends, and where global imperialism picks up, those lines are not clear at all. I’m sure they are defined legally somewhere, and I would be interested in those legal definitions, but when defined by its relation to power, it is conspicuously “never imperialist”, while existing between, and functioning in tandem with, national imperialist powers and global imperialist powers. Like it’s a little too unimperialist for an entity that is situated deep within, and rooted intrinsically with imperialism.
I think it has been a good discussion and exercise sussing this out, I don’t think in was wrong Witt my comment, but I was also only looking at it from this one perspective that doesn’t consider the EU’s most crucial relationships. And as a matter of fact, I think defining the thing, particularly in the realm of social/economics/IR, by its relationship is much more revealing and historically accurate. So i guess I mean i started with the concretization process when I commented, but it wasn’t until we continued discussion that I was able to really work it out.
But that’s why I contribute to discussions! In good faith, I learn a lot
France is absolutely imperialist on its own, the other EU powers are at least imperialist to the extent that they are and were directly involved in US imperialist wars. China is a different case, theoretically there is a possible future were china is the first post imperialist power. I think it’s much more likely though, that at some point they will use either military coercion, start militarily supporting „rebels“, or at some point do direct military intervention, to protect their investments abroad, the ones that they are currently building out.
Call me a cynic, but I think if China ever becomes the world hegemon, they will behave as such.
China (PRC) kinda already is - but it’s not supporting rebels.
Its crushing rebels to secure the incumbent government’s assistance to ensure they keep their investment/get to get it all.
- Mining in Myanmar. (Arming and assisting Tatmydaw in the ongoing civil war)
- Ports and crops, and probably gems, in Sri Lanka (Weapons, Intel, training, and possible boots on the ground killing off Tamil Leadership).
- Pakistani marble, ports, (and oil iirc). (with PMCs in Balochistan, and arms sales to Pakistan, plus the anti-India (fuck Modi) alliance).
I assume similar things in bits of Africa, but I’m sadly ignorant of much there. (I’d put money on Chinese support of Ethiopiab government during the ethnic cleansing and nigh on civil war a few years back though).
Hm. I mean, thats a really good point. Now you’ve got me thinking about the differences between neocolonialism and hegemony, as well as the difference between the historic imperialism of EU nations, vs the role of the EU; as well as like how the national interests of a formerly imperialist country functions within the imperialism of global capital. Not sure where to start but its a very compelling line.
Re: China as global hegemon, we are all becoming Mearsheimer-ists, aren’t we?
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I mean. This isn’t the clearest meme is it? Lol
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Funny you think criticism of russian propaganda equates to support for the west
Seriously. I support both Ukraine and Iran in their wars.
i support the working people. sometimes as an expedient that means a small degree of support of national entities, but the most important thing is the freedom of the people.
Like, just rhetorically? Or are you jet-setting between the two battlefronts?
Definitely the latter.
That explains the hammock.
Westerners do imperialism, and that’s wrong. But westerners also say “Imperialism is wrong”, which proves that they are critically thinking.
The Insidious Evil Easterners do double-plus imperialism, which is even wronger. And they don’t even realize its wrong, because they have been brainwashed.
That’s why Westerners need to fight the Insidious East and defeat them. Then the people will be liberated and the West - which was only doing imperialism in self-defense - can finally enact a lasting peace that will bring about a global utopia.
Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works.
Some edits? :p
Imperialist nation states do imperialism, and that’s wrong.
But Imperialist nation states also say “Imperialism is wrong”, which proves that they are critically thinking.The Insidious Evil EasternersOther imperialist nation states also dodouble-plusimperialism,which is even wrongerand that’s also wrong. Andtheya good portion of their citizens don’t even realize its wrong, because they have been so brainwashed.That’s why
Westernersthe proletariat needs to fight theInsidious Eastimperialist nation states and defeat them. Then the people will be liberated andthe West - which was only doing imperialism in self-defensethe people - can finally enact a lasting peace that will bring abouta global utopiasomething way less shitty than we what have now.Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works. [perfect, no notes].
That’s why
Westernersthe proletariat needs to fight theInsidious Eastimperialist nation states and defeat them.Unfortunately, you’re just spouting pro-MAGA Populist Russian Whataboutist Both Sides Propaganda.
Most idiot leftists don’t get this, because they flunked out of college and don’t understand how economics works. [perfect, no notes].
Never let it be said the moderators of Lefty Memes are above some self-crit
